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From: "credoquaabsurdum" <credoquaabsurdum@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.languages.english
Subject: Re: 'Which' or 'That'
Date: 4 Aug 2005 14:06:22 -0700
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Gran, you're asking for the solution to a series of problems. "Which"
is only used for some things, "that" is used for others, and sometimes,
one can be used instead of another. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to
use some grammartalk to talk more about this, and will do my best not
to overly complicate things.
The most common question that I tend to deal with (I teach English as a
foreign language) is when to use "which" and when to use "that" in
sentences like the ones I quoted earlier:
That's the house which Ruth built.
That's the house that Ruth built.
"Which/that Ruth built" is a relative clause (also called an "adjective
clause," usually by older people). "Which/that Ruth built" works like
an adjective to modify the noun it follows, "house." The words "which"
and "that," in this use, are therefore called "relative pronouns."
I agree with you and Mike on your opinion of the Microsoft Word grammar
checker, even though I am more American than apple pie. Often, however,
no matter how you slice it, the thing is just plain WRONG. Here's why:
the rule that the thing is supposed to work off of is expressed like
this in a book called _The Chicago Manual of Style_ (15th edition).
-----
Which/That: These are both relative pronouns. In polished American
prose, "that" is used restrictively to narrow a category or identify a
particular item being talked about {any building that is taller must be
outside the state}; "which" is used nonrestrictively -- not to narrow a
class or identify a particular item but to add something about an item
already identified {alongside the officer trotted a toy poodle, which
is hardly a typical police dog}. "Which" should be used restrictively
only when it is preceded by a preposition {the situation in which we
find ourselves}. Otherwise it is almost always preceded by a comma, a
parenthesis, or a dash. In British English, writers and editors seldom
observe the distinction between the two words.
-----
The problem is that the computer is trying to understand if "which" in
your prose is being used "restrictively" or "non-restrictively," which
is cannot decide because it cannot actually READ and make such
distinctions.
IMPORTANT: I am NOT trying to say that American English is more precise
than British English in this post. It's just that an important "good
usage" book on American English, feels this point is very important,
and Microsoft has blindly followed Chicago's guidelines and developed a
botched program to deal with the issue.
-----
I can at least fully answer regarding your example on color:
"Which color do you prefer?"
"What color do you prefer?"
We tend to use "which" when we are dealing with a limited number of
possibilities, "what" when we are dealing with more. The rules are not
hard and fast, however, and many speakers do not always keep to the
distinction. However, as a question word beginning a sentence, "which"
is almost never interchangeable with "that" in any form of English,
British, American, whatever.
Last point: I hate "one" too.
Gran wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:49:55 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
> <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> tickled the keyboard to say:
>
> >Gran wrote:
> >[...]
> >> Now we get into dear old Microsoft and its rather vague way of
> >> suggesting alternatives when checking. It frequently wants to
> >replace
> >> 'which' with 'that' and I wondered if there's something basic I'm
> >> missing (like education).
> >>
> >> Bear with me - I'm willing to learn!
> >
> >Ah, another Micrsoft victim! Ignore that bastard: it's got a
> >more-American-than-the-Americans thing about "that". I don't actually
> >think this which-that choice is something which (see that one? it
> >could have been a "that") adult native speakers of English actually
> >get wrong, which (see that one? it could NOT have been a "that") is
> >nice.
>
> I just thought of where 'that' doesn't fit .....
> "That colour do you prefer?"
>
> Maybe I'll make my on rule (see that which I've invented ) and stick
> with it.
>
> Thanks guys. Sometimes it helps just to unload that which bothers one.
> (I hate 'one' but that's another story which I''ll go into another
> time.)
> --
> Gran
> Last night I dreamt I had written 'Lord Of The Rings'.
> This morning I realised I'd just been Tolkein in my sleep.
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