| SJ Games, Munchkin, Tedium |
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| Rookie-Move (yronwode.com@nagasiva) |
2005/04/27 15:26 |
# tomvasel@gmail.com, obviously a huge fan of Dick Vaughn:
Dick Vaughn? obviously I'm not in the game-publishing circuit.
#> Tom: Can humor (theme) take a low to mediocre game and make it an
#> enjoyable experience?
#>
#> Steve: What is a "low to mediocre game"?
phat_joe ("a former fan") <scag@moralminority.org>:
# *cough*Munchkin*cough*
LOL! Munchkin is an obvious Beer-n-Pretzels appendage to GURPS.
neither of these are board games, GURPS is of superior design
and Munchkin and its spin-offs is a card game amusing to a
certain element (I got bored with it but my gamingkin seem
to like it quite a bit). I'd rather play Texas Hold'Em.
#> Tom: You dabbled in the CCG market with INWO. Do you see something
#> like that in the future, or has the market died for that sort of game?
#>
#> Steve: The CCG market has not died, but it's chancy and largely
#> dominated by unplayable concoctions based on big licenses. Not
#> something I want to get involved in right now.
#
# Quite a shame, considering the BFD expansion for INWO was
# completely playtested and ready to go.
I liked the original game in its plastic cases and semi-
CheapAss feel much more. the first INWO left me with a
sour after-taste. "Nuclear War"+"Devastation" was better
as a card game by far and more fun and meaningful than
any of the Munchkin games. it seems to me that a great
deal of the socioPOLITICAL content of Jackson's writing
was ditched in the production of Munchkin+. if one is
a fan of Jackson's writing and RPGs then the Munchkins+
card game may hold one's attention and interest, but
as a strategy-game it leaves something to be desired.
#> Steve: If you look at a game as a toy purchase, yep,
#> Doom's the way to go ... Lots of toys there.
grotesque! Disney's Pirate "Life" or "Pirate's Cove"
were *far* more intruiging them game pieces and
durable, comparable to the Lord of the Rings Risk.
note that I DID play a great deal of Doom I on
computer (got it free), did not bother with Doom II-III,
and would *never* pick up the board game, even though
I've played Zombie-shoot board games and a couple
of computer-games-gone-board (sometimes bored!).
I'm not a first-person-shooter or Combat fan, realy.
#> It will be interesting to see if it's still
#> on shelves in a year, and again in two years.
#
# And I'm curious how many copies of the 300 Munchkin
# games and expansions are still going to be sitting
# on the shelf of my local game shop, unbought.
role-playing games are going to be around a while and
therefore their spin-off card games may also remain popular.
I'm not an employee or related to SJ Games at all and I'm
not a gameshop owner either. my guess. note that I don't
really like the Munchkin family of games, but friends do
who are involved with putting on conventions.
#> Tom: I understand the light-component value of games by
#> companies such as Cheapass. But those games are also
#> dirt-cheap.
#
# This is our moment of zen for the interview.
#
# Cheapass games cost about 5 bucks. SJ Games cost around $25 for
# comparable quality components in some cases.
it shows, I think. "Give Me the Brain" was the best I've seen
from CheapAss thusfar. I heard they had problems with the
Mr. Bond theme usage (lawsuit).
#> Steve: Since you press the question, I can try to give you an answer
#> you like better. But that's not a criticism that I see in my own mail,
# In denial? Or has no one actually bothered to complain directly?
you'd know, I guess, as a gameshop owner. my impression is
that there is no reticence from middle-class game players
to fork out for clever satiric writing and buy all of the
expansion sets, even for card games (so far). I can't say
that I follow that trend, but my focus is ancient board
games and the occasional extension into variant versions
of modern board games (like LOTR Risk; I'm not getting
the Star Wars version, though I'm doing a retrospective
history study of the game as it progresses through time
by surfing online at sites like BGG and others).
#> and see boxes of plastic toys selling for $25 or $30, but I don't even
#> think we're in the same marketplace . . . the people who are impressed
#> by "component value" over "play value" will *never* be my customers.
#
# Is it not possible to have both??
not if it includes the Jackson arch writing, I doubt it.
ya gotta wonder whether the CIA sting on Jackson Games
has had a long-term effect on the quality of their
sociopolitical slant. I could well be mistaken and did
not bother looking at the SJ website mentioned here.
# Look, I can pay $35 for Around the World in 80 Days or I can pay $25 for
# Carpet Munchkin 3: Furry Pie. One of them is a great game, accessible to
# even non-gamers, with beautiful art, high-quality pieces of several
# different types, a sturdy board, and adequate containment. The other is
# two decks of cards sloshing around in a box. (I'll leave it as an
# exercise to the reader to determine which is which.) There is no close
# comparison here that any sane person could make.
excellent point. "Around...." is thematic to nongamers primarily,
I'd guess, whereas Munchkin spinoffs capitalize on RPG popularity,
which SJ Games thinks is still very popular (I wouldn't know).
#> That said, I'm working on a couple of projects with more elaborate
#> components, but they will NOT be cheap.
#
# Considering that Frag, which originally went for $35, requires you to
# CUT AND ASSEMBLE YOUR OWN PIECES OUT OF CARDBOARD, I am frankly AFRAID
# to see how much the games with "more elaborate components" will cost.
LOL! point well made, though even Avalon Hill's have been that way.
#> Is there anything in http://www.sjgames.com/newproducts/
#> that you'd like to know more about?
#>
#> Tom: No, nothing in particular.
#
# Runner-up for moment of zen. Nothing in that list of upcoming products
# is at all attention-grabbing (well, unless you're a furry I guess). SJG
# is continually releasing rehashes of the same stuff. Who cares?
posted to rec.games.board. Tom didn't know anything about Munchkin
(not a collectable), and he probably focusses more on things like
Settlers of Catan or Risk or some comparable board game (I haven't
read much of his other interviews, but this one seems like he was
poorly-prepared, and I would have preferred to see more focus on
Jackson's POLITICAL EDGE, lost in the interview and abandoned by
SJ and Co??).
#> Steve: Of my own: Munchkin for a quick card game,
#
# Quick card game? He must be playing it solitaire.
quick for one of SJ Games, esp cards. it can be very quick
without playing the extensions and with about 4-6 players.
given that I find it boring, it is always too long for me. ;)
#> Steve: I can't quantify it, but certainly it's good to have people
#> saying they like the games!
#
# What about people saying they hate them?
# [backstory]
# Look, I used to be a huge, huge devotee of SJ Games. I have several
# friends who were MIBs. I think SJ has produced some wonderful games.
# Hacker is one of my all-time favorites. INWO is an incredibly clever and
# interesting CCG, absolutely great for 4-player games. Knightmare Chess
# is a ton of fun among the right people.
interesting, I have bare exposure to many of these.
# You will note that all of these games have something in common. They are
# all old. Now you must consider here that I am not a roleplayer, so GURPS
# is of no interest to me, but in my opinion SJG hasn't put out anything
# particularly good in about 5 years.
not only will GURPS not be interesting, but neither will MunchkinS.
thinking about all this, I suspect that the customer-base for these
types of games is less thinking-boardgame-oriented and more turn-
oriented hand-card-games like Bridge, MahJong, or the sit-on-your-
hands-during-other-turns-and-hope-for-a-good-draw type game.
# That didn't stop me from continuing to buy their games. Oh no, like a
# battered wife I returned time and again to buy such classics as Star
# Munchkin, Chez Dork, and Ninja Burger. I have to admit, I find the
# concepts cute. I even think Chez Dork is pretty damned funny, and apt.
at some point it becomes a book people could buy instead.
# That doesn't mean that it's a good game, or that I can even get people
# to play a game of it.
#
# The fact of the matter is, the folks I game with would rather play
# Bohnanza or DungeonQuest than Chez Dork. They'd rather play Power Grid
# or Puerto Rico than even bother trying Ninja Burger. Yes, my copy of
# Ninja Burger, which I paid $25 for, has not even ever been played by
# humans because they were so turned off by the other similar-looking
# games from SJG.
I don't know these other games at all, but I might like them.
# Perhaps you can chalk all this bitterness up to the fact that SJ shut
# the lid on my favorite game of his, INWO, even after promising us fans
# the long-awaited expansion we had been praying for. For more info,
# I refer you to the bottom of: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/2001/apr.html
#
# No, I realize that a neglectful CFO nearly fucked the company completely
# (see: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/2001/jul.html July 6 "Bad News"), which
# left no room for pet projects like BFD. However, Munchkin came out
# shortly thereafter and, from what I can gather, saved the day.
popular cheese spin-off from GURPS capitalizing on a whole class of
game and its unliked player-type (kids hoping for Monte Hall).
# Since
# then, innovation has been thrown to the back burner in exchange for
# easily repeatable and profitable sets of geek references on cards.
agreed. it could be a book and be more interesting.
# Come on:
# 168 cards, rules sheet, and sturdy set-up box
# Suggested Retail Price: $24.95
# Not even a rubber band or something to hold the cards.
LOL
# I don't know how much they sell to the retailers for, but I believe that
# if SJG are not making a killing on these games, they must be getting
# ripped off by their printing company.
#
# By the way, at the time of this writing, there are 17 different Munchkin
# items listed on the SJG site, not including the t-shirts. I have to
# wonder if Alan Moon is intending on doing something like this with the
# Ticket to Ride franchise. I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward
# to such gems as Ticket to Ride: the Fast and the Furious, Ticket to Ride
# to the Moon, and Ticket to Ride Through Time.
the art was barely amusing when I first encountered it (in previous
games?), the writing was sometimes humorous. the game was novelty
first play through and quickly, for me, became tedious, though I
stuck it out while friends obtained every extension. if I have to
play such card games I must say I prefer the art *and* playstyle
of "Killer Bunnies" or even the brevity of "Gother Than Thou" to
Munchkin or its children. for me, "Nuclear War" beats them all
because of its pertinence to social issues and warmongering.
is this a culture-clash illustrating itself as emergent within
the rec.games.board forum?
Rookie-Move
luckymojo.com@nagasiva
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