On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:53:56 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:45:44 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:48:53 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:27:55 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 20:37:59 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:22:09 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>>>>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:30:02 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:57:39 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>>>>>>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>To wit:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>One reflects that much horror is done in the world for the good of
>>>>>>>>some exhaulted cause ... but I say
>>>>>>>>It is the essence of Evil.
>>>>>>>>That there are many Bad people in this world,
>>>>>>>>Who don the mantle of Good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For all the evil in the world is done by Good men.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>VV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What a beautiful, beautiful boy. And related to your young princes
>>>>>>>today. One can see the family resemblance. I wish I could have saved
>>>>>>>him....He would have had a rough time of it anyway with his
>>>>>>>hemophilia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks for the beauty,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Doc
>>>>>>>NP-f31
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dear Doc,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is always a great pleasure to hear from you.
>>>>>>If I may, I should like to propose that you pose yet
>>>>>>Another question for discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Much has been said regarding today's stricte sexual prohibitions
>>>>>>regarding sexual activity between adults and children. Right or
>>>>>>wrong, good or bad, it must be admitted that these prohibitions will
>>>>>>remain, as will remain the consequences for those adults and
>>>>>>youngsters who engage in such activity--right or wrong, good or bad.
>>>>>>It has been said that a true Boylover would not risk exposing his
>>>>>>young friend to such negative consequences by seducing him ... rather
>>>>>>to admire him from "afar" as to actually engage with him.
>>>>>
>>>>>>During the discussion about the actions of the nurse, this aspect of
>>>>>>the problem hovered above the discourse, but was never directly
>>>>>>addressed ... not to be morbid ... but perhaps because the assumption
>>>>>>that the boy would soon die precluded any concern over any long term
>>>>>>ramifications of the act.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Pray tell, what say ye?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>V
>>>>>>
>>>>>>God Save the Queen.
>>>>>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>>>>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>>>>>Rule Britannia!
>>>>>
>>>>>Hey Double V,
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for the challenging question. I understand the need to protect
>>>>>children from rape and molestation. It happens and it is an
>>>>>abomination. Those who do such things should be punished severely.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is a difference though between rape, molestation and children
>>>>>who willingly and willfully engage in sexual acts with adults and
>>>>>older children.
>>>>>
>>>>>Much of western society (and Australian) go insane with the thought of
>>>>>children and sex in the same sentence. Many of the laws you're
>>>>>referring to are reactionary and the penalities are WAAAAAY out of
>>>>>line in comparison to the acts being prosecuted. They don't take into
>>>>>account the natural sexuality and sexual curiosity of children. You
>>>>>and I (and Zackie) know that a 13 year old adolescent boy will stick
>>>>>his penis into anything. They are sexual opportunists. They have a
>>>>>natural curiosity and a biological imperative to spread their seed.
>>>>>How can you legislate against nature? It won't work. Boys will have
>>>>>sex with men or older boys, it's going to happen. 9 out of every 10
>>>>>adolescent boys will have some sort of homosexual experience (Masters
>>>>>and Johnson, 1966). In my opinion that 10th boy is either lying or
>>>>>molesting farm animals. So what happens if peers are caught? In some
>>>>>cases they can both be prosecuted as adults and be considered sex
>>>>>offenders. If there is even a slight age mismatch the older partner
>>>>>will be prosecuted. Obviously any man that touches a child will be
>>>>>punished severely. It demonizes sex, it ruins lives, it makes man/boy
>>>>>sex taboo and as a result even more desirable in some cases.
>>>>>
>>>>>No one wins, everyone loses and no one is protected. The laws make no
>>>>>sense. Forcible rape and unwanted touching should be prosecuted
>>>>>severely. Blatant seduction should be prosecuted to a lesser extent,
>>>>>but still severely. Mutually consensual sex between peers or near
>>>>>peers should be decriminalized. Loving man/boy sexual relationships? A
>>>>>policy should be established where a boy can seek permission to engage
>>>>>in lovemaking with an adult partner with parental/guardian permission.
>>>>>For example, there have been many cases in which a man was prosecuted
>>>>>even when the boy and his family didn't want to press charges. Who
>>>>>wins in that scenario? Those type of convictions should be banned.
>>>>>
>>>>>No law will be perfect, but the current laws are insane. Protections
>>>>>are needed, but extreme punishments of the type that are currently
>>>>>sought go too far.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's not a perfect world. There will be no perfect solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>>Great topic. We can save the concept of emotional damage to a child
>>>>>for next time.
>>>>>
>>>>>Doc
>>>>>NP-f31
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Doc,
>>>>
>>>>Ha! Indeed! Dear young Trevor is about in the fields, diddling Daisy
>>>>the Dairy Cow!
>>>
>>>Dammit! Is he at the cow again? That little sneak! I chased him out of
>>>the barn not twenty minutes ago. I know how he feels, she has pretty
>>>brown eyes....
>>>>
>>>>Of course. Rape and molestation, as I signify the terms, is an
>>>>abomination, the perpetrators of which deserve an equally painful
>>>>experience as provided by law ... for I signify these acts as causing
>>>>pain, rather than pleasure .. immediately experienced by the child as
>>>>such. In my mind, both these involve force, physical coercion, and/or
>>>>intimidation.
>>>>
>>>>Unfotunately, society does not signify the terms rape and molestation,
>>>>as well as a host of others, in the same way. They are applied in
>>>>such a way as to render what the child actually felt at the time
>>>>completely irrelevant. Hence, by so-called modern social morays, your
>>>>nurse was guilty of rape and molestation, and had traumatised the
>>>>child irrespective of whether the poor boy realised it or not! Not to
>>>>worry. There are many lay and professionals who will inform the lad
>>>>in great detail how he has been traumatised, and that he'd best
>>>>acknowledge the fact if he is to heal.
>>>>
>>>>I think it is precisely for this reason that you accurately observe
>>>>the destruction of both man and boy.
>>>>
>>>>Addressing the concept of seduction requires a definition. In terms
>>>>of sex, seduction is to engage in immoral, illicit or unlawful sexual
>>>>intercourse without the use of intimidation, but with persuasion. More
>>>>generally, it is seen as one partner attempting to convince another to
>>>>engage in sex. In other words, it is the "dating-game" so prevelant
>>>>among men and women. Men ply women's desires with gifts and
>>>>compliments, and vice-versa today ... most usually to a singular goal
>>>>of landing in the sack. I believe that Boylovers, for good or bad,
>>>>play the same strategies as heterosexuals, don't you? Certainly
>>>>heterosexuals have their violent rapists and sexual predators by the
>>>>score, but conversely, the majority engage in persuasion to hook their
>>>>catch, do they not? So, one must consider the defintion one wishes
>>>>to embrace. Should Boylovers be punished by society for engaging in
>>>>persuasion (plying their amor's affection with icecreams and Ipods,
>>>>for instance?) as do heterosexuals, or should they be punished because
>>>>they are Boylovers who have engaged in such behaviour?
>>>
>>>I think that boylovers need to be very careful about seduction. As I
>>>mentioned, adolescent boys are the easiest things to have sex with
>>>because they're looking to plug whatever holes they find. What I worry
>>>about is the power imbalance between an adult and a boy, even a teen.
>>>In my view, lovemaking between a boy and man can only be mutually
>>>beneficial (and fair) if the boy is a truly equal partner. What is his
>>>motivation? Does he do it to make his older friend happy? That would
>>>be the wrong reason. Does he do it because he wants to be blown until
>>>his head pops off? That would be the wrong reason. Why you ask?
>>>Because of buyer's remorse. Before and during he's all into it because
>>>he's about to get his rocks off. The day after he might start thinking
>>>about the ramifications. Hey, I just did it with another guy. That's
>>>gay! You can't take it back. It's done. Now what? Does he resent his
>>>erstwhile lover? What happens when he becomes a man? Will he look back
>>>on the roll he had with his adult friend and feel used?
>>>
>>>IF a man and boy make love, it should only be after MUCH discussion
>>>about these issues and SO many others. The child has to make a VERY
>>>serious adult decision. An example: one of my loved boys, T-Bone
>>>(NP-g15) is gay. When he was 11, and living nearby, he wanted to make
>>>love to me. I said no. For every reason I gave him not to he had a
>>>reason to do so. But I KNEW he wasn't ready. Later when he was 12, he
>>>discovered why I'd said no. His Grandfather grilled him about the
>>>nature of our relationship. He able to innocently and truthfully say
>>>that we didn't have sex because I wouldn't, even though he would've.
>>>That is why he is still in my life and I'm walking around free. I
>>>wanted to SO badly. But it wasn't the best thing for HIM. I am all
>>>about him. What I want doesn't matter. He is now 16. He is more than
>>>ready to make that adult decision. Unfortunately for me, he has a
>>>boyfriend. LOL! Not unfortunately, his boyfriend is now one of my
>>>loved boys too.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do I understand you correctly in suggesting that a boy could get a
>>>>permission slip from his parents to sleep with a man? You drew
>>>>chuckle from me. "Dear Mrs. Jones. Should you consent to have Trevor,
>>>>who has been diddling Daisy the Dairy Cow lately, consort with me so
>>>>that we might diddle one another, please sign and date this form and
>>>>dusclaimer, giving your permission. Sincerely ... "
>>>
>>>I was dreaming about a perfect world. It is funny though.
>>>
>>>>All in jest, I assure you!
>>>>
>>>>I must note that there are many parents who are so self-consummed and
>>>>irresponsible, that they put their children in danger. Many boys who
>>>>become "victims" of so-called child molesters come from these types of
>>>>families and, in truth, could have never found a more loyal and loving
>>>>protector than the Boylover who fell due to love.
>>>>
>>>> I do agree that t'would be better if, barring the use of coercion or
>>>>intimidation by the Boylover, that a child's parents, if so offended,
>>>>could pursue compensation through the civil courts--something that is
>>>>commonly done already, but usually only after a criminal conviction.
>>>>
>>>>Still, in the end, there is what I want, and what you want, and what
>>>>they all desire ... and then there is the reality as you have noted.
>>>>
>>>>Still the question then lingers. Considering reality, would a true
>>>>Boylover forego contact for the sake of the boy?
>>>
>>>I would, and I do. And I know a LOT of men who do the same. I have
>>>counseled a lot of BLs who have struggled with the issue. Many of them
>>>have discovered the ironic truth that if you set aside your desires
>>>and focus on the needs of the boy, you can create a relationship that
>>>goes beyond anything sexual in terms of intimacy and reward.
>>>>
>>>>Most Respectfully Submitted,
>>>
>>>Thank you for 'getting it'. That's why I love you.
>>>
>>>Doc
>>>>
>>>>HMSVV
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>God Save the Queen.
>>>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>>>Rule Britannia!
>>
>>
>>Dear Doc,
>>
>>Addressing your ending first, and your beginning last: If I may so
>>venture, most views frowning on sexual contact by adults with minors
>>are premised by one of two principles. First, that such contact,
>>whether argued as contrary to natural order or human morality, is
>>fundamentally wrong. Secondly, given the present social stigma
>>assigned to such acts, while not necessarily ruling out the first
>>principle, such contact is situationally wrong. It would seem then
>>that youagree with the second principle, and based on that, practice
>>abstinence and recommend the same to Boylovers who have sought your
>>advice.
>>
>>You make an effective argument for this position from the adolescent
>>lad's point of view.
>>
>>You refer to a lack of balance of power. I assume you mean that the
>>adult will be more able to manipulate the boy than the boy the man,
>>and that fairness in such a relationship can only be acheived if the
>>boy is truly an equal partner, something that, by the very of the
>>relationship, you assert is nearly impossible.
>
>Hey Double V!
>
>My main consideration is the welfare of the boy. Children are
>programmed to show respect and deference to adults. Where I live, boys
>are raised to address adults as 'Sir and Ma'am'. In a love
>relationship, that situation is exacerbated by the fact that the boy
>would do anything to please his adult friend.
>
>I don't say that it is impossible. I have achieved that sort of
>relationship many times. In fact, I end up being extremely
>deferrential to the boys in my life. The equality is something that
>needs to be worked at and talked about. T-Bone, at 11, told me that he
>wanted to make love to show me how much he loved me. He didn't HAVE to
>do that to show me love, but he thought, because I'd told him I'm a
>boylover, that I wanted to make love to him. I did, I told him, but
>neither of us were ready for that big step. We had many long talks
>about it and he really didn't understand why I kept saying know until
>he was 13, but as I noted by 12 he was glad I did. By 13 he'd stopped
>asking. Today, it would be the right thing. So who knows?
>
>>Do you believe that
>>romantic relationships are normally on parity, or do they rise and
>>fall like the tides? Do you not believe that a boy can be equally, or
>>perhaps more manipulative, than a man?
>
>Yes to both, but because we're talking about boys and men as opposed
>to two adults, I preach caution and communication. Just because a boy
>knows what he wants doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. Do you
>agree?
>
>>You also caution that the boy, having engaged in sex with a man, would
>>eventually feel worry, regret or remorse over having done so,
>>realising he had performed a homosexual act, which could very well
>>lead to resentment of his man friend and difficulty reconciling the
>>act when he becomes a man.
>
>I warned that this is a possibility, not an inevitability. It is one
>more thing that potential partners need to discuss befor taking the
>big step.
>
>>Do you feel it would be more
>>acceptable for a Boylover seeking a young friend to find a society
>>somewhat more accomodating?
>
>I don't think so. I care about the well being of boys regardless of
>where they live. Before a man makes love to his young friend it is the
>man's responsibility to be absolutely sure that his YF knows what he's
>getting himself into, understands all of the possible consequences and
>that once done it can't be undone. He also had to understand that for
>the safety of the man he loves, he must never speak of the lovemaking
>to anyone as long as he lives. Those concepts are difficult for boys
>to truly understand. The older the boy, the more likely he is to
>understand the seriousness of what he is contemplating.
>
>>Have I done you justice, friend?
>
>Sure, where is your head in all of this?
>
>>It is curious that you note this particular problem; an otherwise
>>heterosexual young lad reconciling himelf to a homosexual act, an act
>>deeply disdained ( even in our post-Victorian days!) by many western
>>societies--"Turd Burglers" and all, you know. I had a close friend,
>>an older gentleman, who was as fond as he was generous with young
>>teenage boys--he always had them about during the day and for sleep
>>overs, you know. He had apparently managed to convince a group of the
>>young fellows to masturbate together, and allow him to assist.
>>
>> It so happened that my gentleman friend was arrested some six months
>>later for molestation. It seems one of his boys, a relative newcomer
>>(no pun intended) was so upset over the entire suaree, that he finally
>>told his father, that he was afraid it would "make him a queer" and
>>disappoint his Dad.
>
>>Where hence do such ideas derive? Clearly, from people who have
>>traditionally shared this idea, however preposterous.
>
>It just goes to show that boys, even teens, don't really understand
>the ramifications of what they do sometimes.
>
>>Lastly, leave poor Trevor be, or he'll be after Nellie's hamsters
>>again.
>
>And he's been at the sheep as well.
>
>>Very Sincerely Yours,
>>V
>>God Save the Queen.
>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>Rule Britannia!
>
>Love and kisses,
>
>Doc
>NP-f31
>
>PS-Thanks for the picture post too! WooHoo!
Dear Doc,
Hmm. A very, very baaaaa-d boy, deserving of a stout thrashing, the
administration there of, for which, I am sure many in the audience
would volunteer.
You are quite welcome for the posting. A quick knock-off, really.
I will confess that I am not as high-minded nor charitably motivated
as you, my dear confidant. Circumstances and personal choice have
left me without a young friend to cuddle, but had I the freedom and
opportunity, I would have taken it. It is a cold world out there,
particularly for Boylovers, and we all companionship, sexual closeness
and comfort, affection and love, each in our own way.
There are certain premises that are very difficult to overcome when
looking at this business of sexual affection for and sexual play with
boys, concepts that are ingrained from our earliest years hence. I do
not pretend to speak for other Friends in Affection (insomuch as I
invariably get into trouble when I generalise!), I speak only for
myself.
A disclaimer: I base the following on the presupposition that any
relationship between a man and boy does not involve deception, verbal
or physical intimidation, force or violence. I think I've made my
views very clear about that kind of thing.
Whenever a discussion about sex arises, joking and bragging aside, it
is nearly always couched in the negative. I think we speak of and
view sex far too negatively and seriously. If anything, sex good. Sex
is spontaneous, playful, mutually fun and fulfilling ... at least it
should be. Too often convention attempts to destroy this fine
quality--My God, just look at the UK a hundred or so years ago. To
preface it with dire warnings about being ready, taking the big step,
dealing with commitment and consequence, attempts to bind pleasure in
iron. Nothing spontaneous or playful about that. This is precisely
what tradition intends, to instill certain suppositions and prevent
certain behaviours.
If a boy knows what he wants, does he necessarily know what he is
doing? Well, honestly ... does anyone? If adults believe they have
the prophylactic of experience to protect them from bad decisions,
then it appears their protection is full of holes, as a daily perusal
of the papers will confirm. Boys are perfectly capable of making
decisions, for good or bad and, I believe, are no less skilled at it
than most adults. I do agree with you, but not with your intent,
which is to contrast boys from people. I don't believe the contrast
can be supported.
Upon research and reflection, I believe you will find that most young
friends who had engaged in sexual play with boys and men, become
heterosexual. The idea that gay tendencies predispose a boy to
indulge in sexual play with other boys or men is a phallusee ... er
... I mean fallacy. The belief that a boy who engages in such play
with boys or men will become gay is patently incorrect. These are
ideas that our societies instill in us from the earliest ages ... and
they yet prove stoutly resistant to change.
My question to you regarding going to another culture was a silly one,
I suppose, and you will forgive me. Even in our own societies, boys
will respond in a wide range of ways to having experiened sexual play.
Some may be upset, perhaps overly so, given the present state of
things, others perhaps embarrassed, others tickled but hesitant, still
others entertained, or satisfied, or enthusiastic or even
aggressively encouraged. There are boys who would feel the experience
was bad, but others who--(Dear Nellie, Cover Your Ears and Look After
Your Hamsters!)--felt the experience was good. When you step out of
our own culture and into others, these reactions shift according to
the relative sexual permissiveness or restrictiveness of that culture.
I have heard pubescent Italian boys in days of yore were expected to
indulge in sexual play with other boys, just to keep them off the
girls. There are certain South American tribes where a man might
fondle his young son while sleeping, to give him a sense of pleasure
and security. Then, of course, there are the classical Athenians ...
and others!
Nevertheless, every society has its sexual taboos, and will chose to
ignore what doesn't support them. Ours are particularly stringent,
with potentially dire consequences for violating them. So, I think
most boys do indeed understand the dangers ... for every boy knows
from experience how their peers might look at him, speak of him and
treat him, should a liaison with a man become known. Boys can be
terribly cruel, particularly adolescent boys. I know of two cases in
particular where boys, who had been or rumoured to have been engaging
in sexual play with a man, were mercilessly teased by classmates. One
boy finally beat his tormentor up, and (apparently having proven his
manhood) that was the end of that. The other boy, desperate to escape
the endless taunts of his peers, threw himself from a structure and
thereby, tragically, succeeded.
I would add that both lads were involved with a chap who was making
videos for sale (casting the veracity of his "affections" for his
friends in great doubt) and had been arrested. A true Boylover would
not have put his young friend in such a compromising position.
Well. I am very sorry, Doc, for I intended this to be brief and ...
as all can see ... I have again failed!
All My Best,
V
God Save the Queen.
God Bless the Prince of Wales.
God Preserve the Windsors.
Rule Britannia!
|
| Follow-ups: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 |
|