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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Stop God
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:40:40 +0200
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Uzytkownik "Ilya Shambat" <ishambat@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:6d8c5a02.0307262022.1f7c36b0@posting.google.com...
> "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
news:<bftbl4$6ka$1@news.onet.pl>...
> > I've been an adulterer, and had a brush with the occult, but
nevertheless I
> > do not fear those verses because they refer to the sinner who carries on
> > impenitent. If that were not the case, it would render the Gospel of
none
> > effect, and the sense of the Bible's message would be lost.
>
> You're saying that it only takes confessing one's sins and trusting in
> Jesus to get eternal life?
Exactly. Nothing more, nothing less.
There are many verses that give this promise, most famously John 3:16.
If you read John's gospel, then John's letter, then Galatians, then Hebrews,
you will have a good grounding in the promises. But they appear all over the
new and the old testament.
> Can a person who trusts in Jesus be sentenced to hell regardless?
No. He said 'Him that cometh to me, I shall in no wise cast out.' If you
have really believed that Christ is the son of God and died effectively for
your sins on calvary, and that you are being forgiven for that reason, not
because you deserve it, then you are in the elect of God and even if your
pilgrimage is tough nothing can wrest you out of His hand.
> > We are told by Christ to forgive even up to 'seventy times seven' the
sins
> > of people who repeatedly do the same bad thing to us, but come up and
> > apologise.
> >
> > God similarly, forgives the same sins, even very grievous ones, over
and
> > over again, for those who ask for forgiveness. Salvation is not
dependent on
> > being a good person, salvation is dependent on a deep down understanding
> > that actually we're not ood enough for salvation, it's a pure gift of
God.
> > That's the only 'trick' to it, but that's what causes men and women to
go
> > into eternal punishment; rejection of the Gospel.
>
> What happens to people who never knew about the Gospel?
God is able to review their case in accordance with what they did know, but
this is a very small minority of people in this day and age. I believe
special mercies are available for the unborn child or young children taken
before they could reasonably respond, but I am not addressing such people
right now.
> What about Hindu swamis, like Adano and Yogananda, who were dead for a
> while and returned?
> One person I know who had an NDE, says that the experience was a lot
> like ones described in Tibetan Book of the Dead.
> I also keep hearing stories of people feeling their spirit hover over
> their body. If a spirit can hover over a body, then the spirit becomes
> disincarnate at death, and the fires of hell cannot hurt it, wouldn't
> you say?
>
These people didn't die. It is appointed to man once to die and after that
the judgement.
With regard to NDE's I believe that people have a tendency, knowingly or
not, to say what they have heard others say on the subject, but even if they
are all reliable witnesses then there are two further explanations, 1. there
could be a function in the brain that produces such an illusion by certain
natural chemicals if it is in a critical state on the verge of death (an
explanation favoured by atheists) or 2. the illusions were caused by satanic
intervention, in order to confuse people's thinking about the truth.
In any event, these people quite clearly didn't die, and they are not any
authority on what happens to those who do. We can believe revealed religion,
or we can speculate.
> > We are not obligated to forgive the trespasses of those who do not ask
it,
> > and God also is not obligated to do so either, but Christians are
obliged to
> > forgive those who say that they are sorry and there is at least the
> > possibility they could be sincere.
>
> What about men who beat their wives and then say they're sorry and
> once forgiven go back to doing the same thing? Is forgiving them the
> best thing the women can do, or should they take a more proactive
> approach?
I think I would consider a woman, and there are many such, who try to turn
the other cheek, to have a beautiful and godly character. But I would also
look at this point to intervene and prevent her from being hurt. People can
of course and should turn their _own_ cheeks but not turn other people's
cheeks, but defend the weak. Cheek turning is one thing, and forgiveness is
another. You can forgive a person but still take steps to protect yourself
against their problems and sins. In this case a woman could forgive someone
but still be within their rights to live separately from their husband.
Forgiveness here is being at peace about one's grievances with them and not
seeking revenge. Nevertheless justice demands that such men are punished and
I would gladly see them beaten up by another man much bigger than them
whether their victim forgives them or not, and whether they have properly
repented or not. True penitents actually are pretty ready to take their
punishment, generally, by the way.
>
> > If not, then how are we expecting God to do the same to us?
>
> I understand the principle. Whatever it is I'm talking to that calls
> itself God gets very angry with me when I'm not being charitable. He
> wants me to extend to people an understanding that is complete. It's a
> useful practice.
It is typical for humans to judge others by their actions and themselves by
their motives. It is often salutory to reverse this, and judge ourselves by
what we actually get done, but ascribe good excuses to others and the best
motives behind their failures to please us.
I think it was Kirkegaard who said that, but I'm not sure.
Uncle Davey
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