On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:16:12 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
wrote:
>Bible Bob wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:33:03 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bible Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:08:44 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>A participant on www.usenetposts.com/forum asked a
>>>>>>riddle, as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is what just came to my mind which I would like
>>>>>>>to discuss with all of you:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Is human will free? If it is not free, then people
>>>>>>>cannot be held responsible for their sins, as they
>>>>>>>don't have the capacity to abstain from sinning. But
>>>>>>>if human will is free, then God is not all-knowing and
>>>>>>>almighty, as people might choose to behave this way or
>>>>>>>that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now, what is the solution to this?
>>>>>
>>>>>>And my reply was the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>First you would need to define "free".
>>>>>
>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>There is freedom to make choices between possible alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>That's how I would answer your riddle
>>>>>
>>>>>I see you didn't really trouble your answer with the conflict between
>>>>>our free will and God's omniscience.
>>>>>
>>>>>If God already knows what we're going to pick at any give choice, how
>>>>>are we free to choose any of the possible alternatives? Either:
>>>>>
>>>>>a) We can choose any of the alternatives, including those different than
>>>>>what God *knows* we're going to pick -- thus invalidating his omniscience.
>>>>>
>>>>>b) We can only choose the alternative that God has forseen for use, thus
>>>>>making free well an illusion.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've outlined this conundrum a dozen or so times to theists who hold
>>>>>that God is omniscient, yet we have free will. So far, I have only
>>>>>received complimentary dance lessons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Grinder,
>>>>
>>>>I see no genuine logic in the above. There is "no different" than
>>>>what God knows because God knows all without exception possible
>>>>options. Assume you enter a hallway and the door you entered through
>>>>locked behind you. You have two possible choices. You can go right
>>>>or you can go left. God knows the options and knows which way you
>>>>will go. Take it a step further. God said turn right. You turn
>>>>left. God knew you would turn left. You exercised your free will and
>>>>God knew the options available without forcing you to go one way or
>>>>the other.
>>>
>>>If God knew that I would turn left, then there's no way for me to have
>>>turned right. For, if I did, he didn't really know what I was going to
>>>do, did He?
>>
>>
>> No. He also knew you could turn right.
>
>By saying "could" you are equivocating. If God is omniscient, He knows
>which choice I *will* make, not just the range of possible choices that
>I could make.
No. "could" is accurate because "could" indicates free choice. God
knows the possible choices you could make and which choice you will
make. His knowledge in no way influences your choice unless he
intervenes in some way.
>
>> He knew all the options and
>> which option you would choose to take.
>
>Ok, that's better. God knows which choice I will make. So, I ask you
>again, if God knows what I'll eat for breakfast tomorrow, how can I
>choose something different, when that choice rolls around, without
>making Him wrong?
Simple. You chose what you want for breakfast. God has no control
over what you chose; only what you will chose for breakfast. There is
no chosing something different for you. You are going to chose what
you chose because that is what you do. Nothing you can do can make
him wrong. He knows what you will do but what he knows you do not
know and he does not intervene to cause you to chose one way or the
other.
>
>> You are assuming that God
>> controls the situation. God is not the decision maker, you are - He
>> just knows what you will decide.
>
>Not at all. None of my logic relies upon God being all-controlling.
>I'm only saying that if my future is known, it is also fixed -- but not
>necessarily fixed by those that know that future.
Even though your future is known, it is not fixed. What God knows no
one else knows. If God does not intervene, then the choice and
outcome are based on the exercise of your free will and have nothing
to do with what God knew you would do.
>
>>>>You b) is also not logical. You incorrectly say that we can only
>>>>choose "the alternative" that God has foreseen.
>>>
>>>I've split the range of possibility into two conditions, a) and b). I
>>>do not assert that one of the specific scenarios is true, only that both
>>>of them cannot be true.
>>
>>
>> Neither are true.
>
>In terms of a discussion of the premises and possible conclusions from
>this syllogism/conundrum, I think we're better served by talking about
>the "simplied" version provided near by in this thread.
Then the conditions would have to be contraries. If they are not true
contraries the exercise won't work. There is no conundrum in reality;
only in the premises.
____________God controls outcome. God does not control outcome
Man No Choice Choice
God Choice Choice
If God controled outcome man would have no choice. If God does not
control outcome man does have a choice. God has a choice regardless
of whether he controls the outcome (which He doesn't). God does not
control the outcome, therefore man has choice.
>
>>>>What God forsees and
>>>>what we choose are not connected. Suppose that God foresaw you turn
>>>>left. That has no affect on your exercise of free will.
>>>
>>>Sure it does. If God forsees that I will turn left, and I turn right,
>>>then He's not omniscient is He?
If God did not have foreknowledge, then it would be possible for you
to turn either way without him knowing in advance which choice you
would make. But, since he does have foreknowledge - you can not fool
him and he won't ever be wrong. That's why it is called
foreknowledge.
>>
>>
>> But if God knew you would turn right, you would turn right not because
>> He controlled the action; but because He knew what you would decide to
>> do.
>
>Fine, God knows what I'm going to do because he's omniscient, not
>all-controlling. The requirement, however, that my future can be known
>to every detail (ie, perfect knowledge,) means that it also must be fixed.
No. You assume based on your limited knowledge of how things work and
how you want them to be, that your scenario is true. But it is not
true. Things that are similar are not identical. Beause there is an
A does not mean that there is an M.
>
>Look at it this way. Let's say someone has a very detailed description
>of the route I'm going to take from Chicago to Phoenix next Wednesday.
>
>If I decide to deviate from that route, their itinerary is going to be
>inaccurate -- they won't be able to catch me at a layover in Kansas City
>if I end up driving through Little Rock.
>
>If, however, I want that itinerary to remain accurate, my choices are
>somewhat limited. I can still choose between McDonald's or Wendy's at
>the Kansas City airport, but I won't be visiting Bill Clinton's
>childhood home. Note that these limits are not being imposed by the
>holder of that itinerary, but rather by the condition that I keep it
>accurate.
>
>This is a very finite example. If we take it to an infinite limit --
>perfect knowledge, or omniscience would button that itinerary down to
>the finest detail. And, consequently, *any* deviation from it would
>would make it imperfect.
>
>In sort, if your entire future is truly known before it happens, you
>can't write it as you go along.
>
Why not? God knowing every little detail in no way affects what you
do because he does not reveal to you what he knows.
>>
>>>Which is it: Do we have free will or is God omniscient?
>>
>>
>> Both. We have free will. God has foreknowledge. The Bible does know
>> say that God is "omniscient.' People say that.
>
>I'm assuming "know" was intended to be "not."
Correct. My bad.
>
>My only argument here has been that there is a conflict between the
>concepts of man's free will and God's omniscience. If you don't believe
>that God is omniscient, then there's no rub to worry about.
I believe that God knows the past, the present, and the future
including the choices available and the choices that will be made in
all three periods and that he had that information available before
the establishment of the earth - before man.
>
>>>>God does not make all of the alternatives. We make our own
>>>>alternatives or others give us alternatives or circumstances provide
>>>>alternatives and we make choices. God has nothing to do with the
>>>>choice. He just happens to know which choice we will make and does
>>>>not prevent us from making right or wrong decisions.
>>>
>>>You can can assert it all you want, but there is a flat contradiction.
>>>If God knows what choice we are going to make, before we make it,
>>>there's no way for use to choose otherwise without making Him wrong.
Then we disagree.
>>
>>
>> I really do not understand why you are having so much difficulty with
>> such a simple principle. If there is a horse race between two horses
>> and you know which one will win because you saw a "vision" of the
>> future race. When the horse wins who caused it to happen; you or the
>> horse?
>
>That's a non-sequitur. No where have I asserted that God is making man
>do anything. To work within your analogy, however, I can present the
>conflict.
>
>If I see that horse A is going to win, then either horse/jockey A does
>not have the free will to forfeit the race, or my vision is imperfect.
I understand what you are saying, but disgree with what you are
saying. I just do not know how to communicate what I am saying any
better than I have. Uncle Davey is participating in this thread and
has a better grasp of discussing things than I do. Maybe he can
explain it better.
Thank you.
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
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