Bible Bob wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:33:03 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Bible Bob wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:08:44 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A participant on www.usenetposts.com/forum asked a
>>>>>riddle, as follows:
>>>>
>>>>>>This is what just came to my mind which I would like
>>>>>>to discuss with all of you:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Is human will free? If it is not free, then people
>>>>>>cannot be held responsible for their sins, as they
>>>>>>don't have the capacity to abstain from sinning. But
>>>>>>if human will is free, then God is not all-knowing and
>>>>>>almighty, as people might choose to behave this way or
>>>>>>that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now, what is the solution to this?
>>>>
>>>>>And my reply was the following:
>>>>>
>>>>>First you would need to define "free".
>>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>There is freedom to make choices between possible alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>That's how I would answer your riddle
>>>>
>>>>I see you didn't really trouble your answer with the conflict between
>>>>our free will and God's omniscience.
>>>>
>>>>If God already knows what we're going to pick at any give choice, how
>>>>are we free to choose any of the possible alternatives? Either:
>>>>
>>>>a) We can choose any of the alternatives, including those different than
>>>>what God *knows* we're going to pick -- thus invalidating his omniscience.
>>>>
>>>>b) We can only choose the alternative that God has forseen for use, thus
>>>>making free well an illusion.
>>>>
>>>>I've outlined this conundrum a dozen or so times to theists who hold
>>>>that God is omniscient, yet we have free will. So far, I have only
>>>>received complimentary dance lessons.
>>>
>>>
>>>Grinder,
>>>
>>>I see no genuine logic in the above. There is "no different" than
>>>what God knows because God knows all without exception possible
>>>options. Assume you enter a hallway and the door you entered through
>>>locked behind you. You have two possible choices. You can go right
>>>or you can go left. God knows the options and knows which way you
>>>will go. Take it a step further. God said turn right. You turn
>>>left. God knew you would turn left. You exercised your free will and
>>>God knew the options available without forcing you to go one way or
>>>the other.
>>
>>If God knew that I would turn left, then there's no way for me to have
>>turned right. For, if I did, he didn't really know what I was going to
>>do, did He?
>
>
> No. He also knew you could turn right.
By saying "could" you are equivocating. If God is omniscient, He knows
which choice I *will* make, not just the range of possible choices that
I could make.
> He knew all the options and
> which option you would choose to take.
Ok, that's better. God knows which choice I will make. So, I ask you
again, if God knows what I'll eat for breakfast tomorrow, how can I
choose something different, when that choice rolls around, without
making Him wrong?
> You are assuming that God
> controls the situation. God is not the decision maker, you are - He
> just knows what you will decide.
Not at all. None of my logic relies upon God being all-controlling.
I'm only saying that if my future is known, it is also fixed -- but not
necessarily fixed by those that know that future.
>>>You b) is also not logical. You incorrectly say that we can only
>>>choose "the alternative" that God has foreseen.
>>
>>I've split the range of possibility into two conditions, a) and b). I
>>do not assert that one of the specific scenarios is true, only that both
>>of them cannot be true.
>
>
> Neither are true.
In terms of a discussion of the premises and possible conclusions from
this syllogism/conundrum, I think we're better served by talking about
the "simplied" version provided near by in this thread.
>>>What God forsees and
>>>what we choose are not connected. Suppose that God foresaw you turn
>>>left. That has no affect on your exercise of free will.
>>
>>Sure it does. If God forsees that I will turn left, and I turn right,
>>then He's not omniscient is He?
>
>
> But if God knew you would turn right, you would turn right not because
> He controlled the action; but because He knew what you would decide to
> do.
Fine, God knows what I'm going to do because he's omniscient, not
all-controlling. The requirement, however, that my future can be known
to every detail (ie, perfect knowledge,) means that it also must be fixed.
Look at it this way. Let's say someone has a very detailed description
of the route I'm going to take from Chicago to Phoenix next Wednesday.
If I decide to deviate from that route, their itinerary is going to be
inaccurate -- they won't be able to catch me at a layover in Kansas City
if I end up driving through Little Rock.
If, however, I want that itinerary to remain accurate, my choices are
somewhat limited. I can still choose between McDonald's or Wendy's at
the Kansas City airport, but I won't be visiting Bill Clinton's
childhood home. Note that these limits are not being imposed by the
holder of that itinerary, but rather by the condition that I keep it
accurate.
This is a very finite example. If we take it to an infinite limit --
perfect knowledge, or omniscience would button that itinerary down to
the finest detail. And, consequently, *any* deviation from it would
would make it imperfect.
In sort, if your entire future is truly known before it happens, you
can't write it as you go along.
>
>>Which is it: Do we have free will or is God omniscient?
>
>
> Both. We have free will. God has foreknowledge. The Bible does know
> say that God is "omniscient.' People say that.
I'm assuming "know" was intended to be "not."
My only argument here has been that there is a conflict between the
concepts of man's free will and God's omniscience. If you don't believe
that God is omniscient, then there's no rub to worry about.
>>>God does not make all of the alternatives. We make our own
>>>alternatives or others give us alternatives or circumstances provide
>>>alternatives and we make choices. God has nothing to do with the
>>>choice. He just happens to know which choice we will make and does
>>>not prevent us from making right or wrong decisions.
>>
>>You can can assert it all you want, but there is a flat contradiction.
>>If God knows what choice we are going to make, before we make it,
>>there's no way for use to choose otherwise without making Him wrong.
>
>
> I really do not understand why you are having so much difficulty with
> such a simple principle. If there is a horse race between two horses
> and you know which one will win because you saw a "vision" of the
> future race. When the horse wins who caused it to happen; you or the
> horse?
That's a non-sequitur. No where have I asserted that God is making man
do anything. To work within your analogy, however, I can present the
conflict.
If I see that horse A is going to win, then either horse/jockey A does
not have the free will to forfeit the race, or my vision is imperfect.
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