On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:33:03 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
wrote:
>Bible Bob wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:08:44 GMT, Grinder <grinder@no.spam.maam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>A participant on www.usenetposts.com/forum asked a
>>>>riddle, as follows:
>>>
>>>>>This is what just came to my mind which I would like
>>>>>to discuss with all of you:
>>>>>
>>>>>Is human will free? If it is not free, then people
>>>>>cannot be held responsible for their sins, as they
>>>>>don't have the capacity to abstain from sinning. But
>>>>>if human will is free, then God is not all-knowing and
>>>>>almighty, as people might choose to behave this way or
>>>>>that.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now, what is the solution to this?
>>>
>>>>And my reply was the following:
>>>>
>>>>First you would need to define "free".
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>>There is freedom to make choices between possible alternatives.
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>>That's how I would answer your riddle
>>>
>>>I see you didn't really trouble your answer with the conflict between
>>>our free will and God's omniscience.
>>>
>>>If God already knows what we're going to pick at any give choice, how
>>>are we free to choose any of the possible alternatives? Either:
>>>
>>>a) We can choose any of the alternatives, including those different than
>>>what God *knows* we're going to pick -- thus invalidating his omniscience.
>>>
>>>b) We can only choose the alternative that God has forseen for use, thus
>>>making free well an illusion.
>>>
>>>I've outlined this conundrum a dozen or so times to theists who hold
>>>that God is omniscient, yet we have free will. So far, I have only
>>>received complimentary dance lessons.
>>
>>
>> Grinder,
>>
>> I see no genuine logic in the above. There is "no different" than
>> what God knows because God knows all without exception possible
>> options. Assume you enter a hallway and the door you entered through
>> locked behind you. You have two possible choices. You can go right
>> or you can go left. God knows the options and knows which way you
>> will go. Take it a step further. God said turn right. You turn
>> left. God knew you would turn left. You exercised your free will and
>> God knew the options available without forcing you to go one way or
>> the other.
>
>If God knew that I would turn left, then there's no way for me to have
>turned right. For, if I did, he didn't really know what I was going to
>do, did He?
No. He also knew you could turn right. He knew all the options and
which option you would choose to take. You are assuming that God
controls the situation. God is not the decision maker, you are - He
just knows what you will decide.
>
>> You b) is also not logical. You incorrectly say that we can only
>> choose "the alternative" that God has foreseen.
>
>I've split the range of possibility into two conditions, a) and b). I
>do not assert that one of the specific scenarios is true, only that both
>of them cannot be true.
Neither are true.
>
> > What God forsees and
>> what we choose are not connected. Suppose that God foresaw you turn
>> left. That has no affect on your exercise of free will.
>
>Sure it does. If God forsees that I will turn left, and I turn right,
>then He's not omniscient is He?
But if God knew you would turn right, you would turn right not because
He controlled the action; but because He knew what you would decide to
do.
>
>Which is it: Do we have free will or is God omniscient?
Both. We have free will. God has foreknowledge. The Bible does know
say that God is "omniscient.' People say that.
>
>> God does not make all of the alternatives. We make our own
>> alternatives or others give us alternatives or circumstances provide
>> alternatives and we make choices. God has nothing to do with the
>> choice. He just happens to know which choice we will make and does
>> not prevent us from making right or wrong decisions.
>
>You can can assert it all you want, but there is a flat contradiction.
>If God knows what choice we are going to make, before we make it,
>there's no way for use to choose otherwise without making Him wrong.
I really do not understand why you are having so much difficulty with
such a simple principle. If there is a horse race between two horses
and you know which one will win because you saw a "vision" of the
future race. When the horse wins who caused it to happen; you or the
horse?
>
> > God does not
>> control people. He just works in peoples lives over a long period of
>> time if necessary to motivate them to do what He desires. Moses and
>> his forty year period of adjustment is a good example.
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
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