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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: I Rescind My Offer
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:05:30 +0100
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Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:y_Urb.20538$Oo4.5042@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Piorokrat wrote:
>
> > Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
> > news:bJPrb.21492$9M3.6932@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> >>Piorokrat wrote:
> >>
> >>>Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
> >>>news:MuBrb.19053$Oo4.13701@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >>>
> >>>>Piorokrat wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
> >>>>>news:Mcyrb.18643$Oo4.17634@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>><snip>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>What does Piorokrat mean?
> >
> >
> > It's a pun on 'biurokrat' which it rhymes with, but the term 'pioro' is
a
> > quill pen. It basically means that writers should have more political
say.
> >
> Cool.
>
> > <snippage>
> >
> >>>It would have been rude not to introduce our Saviour, then.
> >>>
> >>
> >>See you carry him with you (not looking for an insulting term, I don't
> >>know how you call it), and we see someone talking to his imaginary
> >>friend. I'll sit in the other chair if it makes you more comfortable,
> >>but I won't talk to air as if it's a person, much less a god.
> >
> >
> > Very good. Nor would I. Air is not God.
> >
> Well back to the original point, holding out your hand to help is good.
> But if actually need help and you try to hand me God or Jesus, you're
> not helping.
> >
> >>>>>>>>>By propounding your views as we propounded ours, you had all the
> >>>chance
> >>>>>>>to
> >>>>>>>>>make converts of us, humanly speaking, as we had to make converts
> > of
> >>>>>>>you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Ah, therein lies a difference in parsdigms, Davey. Most pagans do
> >>>>>>>>not wish to make "converts" of you lot and mainly would do as
> > they've
> >>>>>>>>done; request that you cease and desist. These requests have
ranged
> >>>>>>>>from polite to more, shall we say, direct? All have been
disregared
> >>>by
> >>>>>>>>you and your fellow missionaries.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Not true. Ariaan has bid you farewell, Jason seems to be
disengaging.
>
> >>
> >>>>>>Well he said he was leaving and is still posting here. So did you.
> > Is
> >>>>>>it ok with your God to lie to us because we have "carnal mind(s)"?
> >>>>>>Since we don't follow your God we are less than human, eh?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> Back to this point. Is it ok to go against our clearly expressed
> objections because you think it's for our own good?
>
> <snip>
> >
> >>>>>>>>>I say 'humanly speaking', because all true conversion is only
done
> > by
> >>>>>>>God
> >>>>>>>>>anyway, and we only plant seeds, we don't make them germinate.
> >>>>>>>>>
> That leaves us no roles accept as mindless slaves.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Then wheel your "g-d" in here and let 'im try, why does 'he' need
> >>>>>>>>willing missionaries to do 'his' dirty work?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Actually, He doesn't. But we are priveledged to be offered a small
> > role
> >>>>>in
> >>>>>>God's calling in His kingdom.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Then please, stay within his kingdom and only travel amoung those
who
> >>>>>>welcome you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>That's called 'preaching to the converted' and is the religious
> >>>equivalent
> >>>>>of tilting at windmills.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Tilting at windmills is an impossible or useless task, not a redundant
> >>>>one. There are those yet not converted who would welcome you. Look
> >>>harder.
> >>>
> >>>That's a good point.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Thanks.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>Nevertheless, it has disturbed some of my brethren, (not myself I
> >>>have
> >>>>>>>to
> >>>>>>>>>say, as I am so wicked by nature I am past being shocked by
> >>>anything),
> >>>>>>>that
> >>>>>>>>there has been a stream of blasphemy and crudity from some
> >>>>>participants,
> >>>>>>>>and
> >>>>>>>>>this wasn't what they had in mind when they came here.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>The responses have been precisely-gaged to suit specific
> >>>>>>>>instances.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> True. Insulting behavior warrants an insulting response.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>You are saying you didn't want to be evangelised, and at the same
> >>>time
> >>>>>>you
> >>>>>>>>>are calling Jason chicken for announcing a retirement from the
> >>>debate,
> >>>>>a
> >>>>>>>>>sure fire way of making someone go the distance.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>No, you fail to comprehend what was stated, Davey.
> >>>>>>>>Jason was berated for starting a cross-posted incursion
> >>>>>>>>into a.r.w. and then a 'brave exit speech' which equates
> >>>>>>>>to buggering-off after he didn't like the response to this.
> >>>>>>>>At no point in the past has he indicated that he is able to
> >>>>>>>>participate in a "debate", (which is not demonstrated by
> >>>>>>>>his various announced claims but, by participating in them).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Nevertheless, he is a very fine debater. If you disregard for one
> >>>moment
> >>>>>>>your distaste for his credo, look at the website and assess the
high
> >>>>>quality
> >>>>>>>of some of the debating in their. there are even publicised phone
> >>>>>debates he
> >>>>>>>has had.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>We've had personal contact. Prepared and carefully chosen
> > presentations
> >>>>>>may look good, but in direct contact he's not that impressive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I'll be my own judge of that, since I hope to meet him.
> >>>>>I won't say on usenet anyway whatever I find out by meeting him, as I
> >>>>>consider that the number one unethical thing you can do on Usenet.
> >>>>>This is the whole background to why I left soc.singles last January
and
> >>>my
> >>>>>group got set up for me by those who wanted to keep reading my stuff.
> >>>>>In that group, betrayal of hospitality is seen as a cardinal virtue
by
> >>>the
> >>>>>ruling militia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Enjoy the visit. Life's tough sometimes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>So I have a couple of questions for you:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>1. Do you want us to stay or go? (Because you gave a mixed
message
> >>>>>>>above)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Stay if wished. Do not attempt to dictate posting parameters
> >>>>>>>>to an unmoderated NG to which you lot are cross-posting _To_.
> >>>>>>>>Additionally, whining about the nature of the replies received to
> >>>>>>>>various nonsense you post merely makes you look petulant.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, I haven't done it. Between you and me I'm not a great big fan
> > of
> >>>>>>>netiquette, actually.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The overly formalized little hangups of people who got here first
can
> > be
> >>>>>>irritating. Courtesy, however, is not picky or tacky or that hard
to
> >>>>>show.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>All I can repeat is that netiquette is not my obsession. I think
there
> >>>are
> >>>>>important ethical concerns where usenet borders on real life, but
other
> >>>than
> >>>>>that I have to say that this is primarily an entertainment medium.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Some are here to exchange ideas and socialize as well.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I know personally three couples who met on Usenet and got married, and
> > now
> >>>poste as a husband and wife team. Anything like that happened on your
> >
> > group?
> >
> >>I don't meet off line, but I know there are couples who post here, and
> >>friendships have been made. Cantankerous as this group may be, I know.
> >
> >
> > I have met a number of very well known usenet characters over the years.
One
> > thing I never do is disclose info about them unless it is cleared
beforehand
> > that that person wants me to back them up in a point of fact about life.
> > Nevertheless, many people seem unable to keep the trust of
confidentiality
> > as the years go by, so you have to be ready for that when meeting other
> > Usenetters.
> >
> >
> Well thanks for the warning. Works just like RL doesn't it? People
> make mistakes, change, or just plain disappoint. When they aren't
> interesting, engaging, and trustworthy.
>
> >>>>>>>>>2. Are you aware of what the message is that we are preaching?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Yes, and there is no need for its repetition - by either you or I.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Hmmmmmn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>You offered, we rejected. You can stay and play. If you feel too
> >>>>>>strongly about it to contain yourself, then find a more receptive
> >>>>>audience.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Well, unless voted off by a majority, I will stay in all likelihood.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Lovely condition to put before an unmoderated group. Like saying
you'll
> >>>>pay taxes when the IRS switches to Greek currency.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Heh heh heh. No I mean it. We could say that voters need to have posted
> > say
> >>>ten times to arw before today for their vote to count, and for their
> > last
> >>>post to arw not to be more than a month old.
> >>>
> >>
> >>It's an idea, but the fluidity of NGs makes the whole thing hard. And
> >>who gets to do the tedious counting. Mostly we've said 'stop
> >>preaching', not 'go'. Now I did say 'go' if you can't stop preaching.
> >>But the conditions there are fairly cleanly laid out. We really aren't
> >>hostile, we're just not inclined to accept insults. The difference is
> >>not insignificant but often missed.
> >>
> >>
> >>>At risk of being accused of nitpicking I should mention that Greece is
> > in
> >>>the Eurozone, by the way.
> >>>
> >>
> >>I don't keep track of who's in and whose out. But what with The Former
> >>Yugoslavian State of Macedonia (close if not accurate) I should have
> >>remembered.
> >
> >
> > "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". They wanted to be just plain
> > Macedonia, but the Greeks objected.
> >
> Republic - thanks.
>
> > The Greeks have also been the main culprits for keeping Turkey out of
the
> > EU.
> > Or the main benefactors, depending on which way you look at it.
> > Certainly they seem to have a big voice for a little country.
> >
> >
> Not to mention the Euro-bias. And the fact that Turkey is between
> Europe and nations that are close to falling apart. Allowing entry
> might require actually helping in case of problems. France and others
> like barriers they don't have to maintain.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Could you put
> >>>>>>>>>the Christian gospel in your own words for me, so that I can see
> >>>>>whether
> >>>>>>>>you
> >>>>>>>>>are rejecting what we are actually trying to say or only what you
> >>>think
> >>>>>>we
> >>>>>>>>>are trying to say.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>As I iterate above, there is no need. Your "message" is
> >>>>>>>>summarily rejected by this poster. Is that clear enough, Davey?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>It's clear that when I asked you to summarise what our message was,
> > you
> >>>>>>didn't do it.
>
> It would be doing your work after all, wouldn't it?
>
> >>>>>>>There's still a risk in my mind that you don't know what you're
> >>>>>rejecting.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> It isn't a risk to us.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Perfect understanding is not required for a thoughtful rejection.
> >>>>>>That's assuming of course that your offer is all that complicated,
> > which
> >>>>>>to me it isn't. It's just awful is all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>That's up to you.
> >>>>
> >>>>That's it! That's what I've been saying! See, you can get it.
> >>>>Congratulations.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I've known that all along, though.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Then your preaching was being rude and shame on you.
> >
> >
> > No, no. It is not rude for me to have different opinions and express
them.
> > That's part of what makes up a pluralist society.
> >
> >
> If you rephrase enough you change the meaning. Expressing your opinions
> is what we all do. Preaching is what you and others did. We objected
> and were clear about it, and our objections were dismissed. That's rude.
>
> >>>>>No one can force you into accepting Christ as your personal saviour.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>True.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>3. Is your first name Timothy and do you come from the UK?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>No, the first name is Trevor and I come from another land.
> >>>>>>>>Are you actually posting from Warsaw, Davey?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I am, Trevor.
> >>>>>>>Right from the heart of Warsaw.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Uncle Davey, with a good Polish beer in hand.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Can't you save the Catholics, Davey? There's already common ground.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I can't save anybody, but we did have three newcomers who were
> > catholics
> >>>in
> >>>>>Church today.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Good for you.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The sermon they heard will have given them a wake-up call.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>I looked up your name in a Hungarian dictionary but I couldn't find
it
> >>>as a
> >>>>>word.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I am curious as to the origin. It sounds like either the Slavic root
> > for
> >>>>>'grain' or the root for 'heat', but the spelling is rather Hungarian,
> >>>than
> >>>>>Slavic...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Best,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Uncle Davey
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes it is Hungarian. BTW, 4 languages is impressive.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Thank you.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>The info came up as a full page and doesn't cut and paste to text.
> >>>>Besides, I thought you'd be amused:
> >>>>
> > http://dict.sztaki.hu/ <trimmed url>
>
> >>>You might like to look at www.tinyurl.com for moments like this. That
> > having
> >>>been said I had no difficulty retrieving it. Thank you for that.
> >>>I can't believe a word like that wasn't in my dictionary. I wonder what
> > the
> >>>etymology is.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Hungarians can be painfully polite. They often go around the stronger
> >>phrases. But they know them.
> >>
> >
> > They are a courteous lot if you don't consider the driving.
> >
> I'm going to do the Ugly American thing and ask if anyone in Europe
> knows how to drive well. Visited a couple countries when a kid and you
> could always tell the US drivers.
>
> > Other than the Poles they are the only people left where the men
routinely
> > kiss the ladies hands.
> >
> Well that's always a potential ick.
> >
> >>>>
> >>>>What can I say? I was called this by someone I had mildly perturbed.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Strangely enough I started to be called 'Davey' when an atheist friend
> > used
> >>>that on me, teasing me for evangelising. He said I was like the
> > character
> >>>'davey'
> >>>on some children's Christian programme in America. Before that I had
> > been
> >>>posting under my full name.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Oh Gads! You don't know how many times I wished the donkey would nail
> >>that little clay boy. Sorry, but that is funny.
> >
> >
> > Well, anyway. It was an atheist friend that gave that clay boy's name to
me.
> > I put the Uncle in front later as a bit of humour as I was giving a lot
of
> > 'agony aunt' style advice at the time, and everybody said it seemed to
suit
> > me.
> >
> >
> >>>>Zsarnok (Wear it proudly and with a grin.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>But other than that, you're not Hungarian at all?
> >>>George Mikes claimed that everyone is a little bit Hungarian.
> >>>
> >>>Szia.
> >>>
> >>>Uncle Davey
> >>>
> >>
> >>George is Hungarian, eh? <g> For a small country you can't go anywhere
> >>without finding some group of them. A bit odd, that. Yes Hungarians
> >>are in my ancestry. The appelation came from a loving family member.
> >>Natch.
> >>
> >>Zsarnok
> >
> >
> > If I don't spend all my life in Poland, then Hungary, Latvia and Wales
are
> > my list of countries to retire to.
> >
> > Or maybe somewhere in South America.
> >
> > Uncle Davey
> >
> Interesting list.
>
> Zsarnok
>
Where would you like to retire to?
Uncle Davey
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