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From: Zsarnok <zsar@nok.earth.link.net>
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Subject: Re: I Rescind My Offer
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:15:42 GMT
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Piorokrat wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
> news:bJPrb.21492$9M3.6932@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>Piorokrat wrote:
>>
>>>Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
>>>news:MuBrb.19053$Oo4.13701@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>>>Piorokrat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Uzytkownik "Zsarnok" <zsar@nok.earth.link.net> napisal w wiadomosci
>>>>>news:Mcyrb.18643$Oo4.17634@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>
>>What does Piorokrat mean?
>
>
> It's a pun on 'biurokrat' which it rhymes with, but the term 'pioro' is a
> quill pen. It basically means that writers should have more political say.
>
Cool.
> <snippage>
>
>>>It would have been rude not to introduce our Saviour, then.
>>>
>>
>>See you carry him with you (not looking for an insulting term, I don't
>>know how you call it), and we see someone talking to his imaginary
>>friend. I'll sit in the other chair if it makes you more comfortable,
>>but I won't talk to air as if it's a person, much less a god.
>
>
> Very good. Nor would I. Air is not God.
>
Well back to the original point, holding out your hand to help is good.
But if actually need help and you try to hand me God or Jesus, you're
not helping.
>
>>>>>>>>>By propounding your views as we propounded ours, you had all the
>>>chance
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>make converts of us, humanly speaking, as we had to make converts
> of
>>>>>>>you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ah, therein lies a difference in parsdigms, Davey. Most pagans do
>>>>>>>>not wish to make "converts" of you lot and mainly would do as
> they've
>>>>>>>>done; request that you cease and desist. These requests have ranged
>>>>>>>>from polite to more, shall we say, direct? All have been disregared
>>>by
>>>>>>>>you and your fellow missionaries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not true. Ariaan has bid you farewell, Jason seems to be disengaging.
>>
>>>>>>Well he said he was leaving and is still posting here. So did you.
> Is
>>>>>>it ok with your God to lie to us because we have "carnal mind(s)"?
>>>>>>Since we don't follow your God we are less than human, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>>
Back to this point. Is it ok to go against our clearly expressed
objections because you think it's for our own good?
<snip>
>
>>>>>>>>>I say 'humanly speaking', because all true conversion is only done
> by
>>>>>>>God
>>>>>>>>>anyway, and we only plant seeds, we don't make them germinate.
>>>>>>>>>
That leaves us no roles accept as mindless slaves.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Then wheel your "g-d" in here and let 'im try, why does 'he' need
>>>>>>>>willing missionaries to do 'his' dirty work?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Actually, He doesn't. But we are priveledged to be offered a small
> role
>>>>>in
>>>>>>God's calling in His kingdom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Then please, stay within his kingdom and only travel amoung those who
>>>>>>welcome you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's called 'preaching to the converted' and is the religious
>>>equivalent
>>>>>of tilting at windmills.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Tilting at windmills is an impossible or useless task, not a redundant
>>>>one. There are those yet not converted who would welcome you. Look
>>>harder.
>>>
>>>That's a good point.
>>>
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>>>>>>>>Nevertheless, it has disturbed some of my brethren, (not myself I
>>>have
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>say, as I am so wicked by nature I am past being shocked by
>>>anything),
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>there has been a stream of blasphemy and crudity from some
>>>>>participants,
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>this wasn't what they had in mind when they came here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The responses have been precisely-gaged to suit specific
>>>>>>>>instances.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
True. Insulting behavior warrants an insulting response.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You are saying you didn't want to be evangelised, and at the same
>>>time
>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>are calling Jason chicken for announcing a retirement from the
>>>debate,
>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>sure fire way of making someone go the distance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No, you fail to comprehend what was stated, Davey.
>>>>>>>>Jason was berated for starting a cross-posted incursion
>>>>>>>>into a.r.w. and then a 'brave exit speech' which equates
>>>>>>>>to buggering-off after he didn't like the response to this.
>>>>>>>>At no point in the past has he indicated that he is able to
>>>>>>>>participate in a "debate", (which is not demonstrated by
>>>>>>>>his various announced claims but, by participating in them).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nevertheless, he is a very fine debater. If you disregard for one
>>>moment
>>>>>>>your distaste for his credo, look at the website and assess the high
>>>>>quality
>>>>>>>of some of the debating in their. there are even publicised phone
>>>>>debates he
>>>>>>>has had.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We've had personal contact. Prepared and carefully chosen
> presentations
>>>>>>may look good, but in direct contact he's not that impressive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll be my own judge of that, since I hope to meet him.
>>>>>I won't say on usenet anyway whatever I find out by meeting him, as I
>>>>>consider that the number one unethical thing you can do on Usenet.
>>>>>This is the whole background to why I left soc.singles last January and
>>>my
>>>>>group got set up for me by those who wanted to keep reading my stuff.
>>>>>In that group, betrayal of hospitality is seen as a cardinal virtue by
>>>the
>>>>>ruling militia.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Enjoy the visit. Life's tough sometimes.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>So I have a couple of questions for you:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>1. Do you want us to stay or go? (Because you gave a mixed message
>>>>>>>above)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stay if wished. Do not attempt to dictate posting parameters
>>>>>>>>to an unmoderated NG to which you lot are cross-posting _To_.
>>>>>>>>Additionally, whining about the nature of the replies received to
>>>>>>>>various nonsense you post merely makes you look petulant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, I haven't done it. Between you and me I'm not a great big fan
> of
>>>>>>>netiquette, actually.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The overly formalized little hangups of people who got here first can
> be
>>>>>>irritating. Courtesy, however, is not picky or tacky or that hard to
>>>>>show.
>>>>>
>>>>>All I can repeat is that netiquette is not my obsession. I think there
>>>are
>>>>>important ethical concerns where usenet borders on real life, but other
>>>than
>>>>>that I have to say that this is primarily an entertainment medium.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some are here to exchange ideas and socialize as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know personally three couples who met on Usenet and got married, and
> now
>>>poste as a husband and wife team. Anything like that happened on your
>
> group?
>
>>I don't meet off line, but I know there are couples who post here, and
>>friendships have been made. Cantankerous as this group may be, I know.
>
>
> I have met a number of very well known usenet characters over the years. One
> thing I never do is disclose info about them unless it is cleared beforehand
> that that person wants me to back them up in a point of fact about life.
> Nevertheless, many people seem unable to keep the trust of confidentiality
> as the years go by, so you have to be ready for that when meeting other
> Usenetters.
>
>
Well thanks for the warning. Works just like RL doesn't it? People
make mistakes, change, or just plain disappoint. When they aren't
interesting, engaging, and trustworthy.
>>>>>>>>>2. Are you aware of what the message is that we are preaching?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yes, and there is no need for its repetition - by either you or I.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hmmmmmn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You offered, we rejected. You can stay and play. If you feel too
>>>>>>strongly about it to contain yourself, then find a more receptive
>>>>>audience.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, unless voted off by a majority, I will stay in all likelihood.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Lovely condition to put before an unmoderated group. Like saying you'll
>>>>pay taxes when the IRS switches to Greek currency.
>>>
>>>
>>>Heh heh heh. No I mean it. We could say that voters need to have posted
> say
>>>ten times to arw before today for their vote to count, and for their
> last
>>>post to arw not to be more than a month old.
>>>
>>
>>It's an idea, but the fluidity of NGs makes the whole thing hard. And
>>who gets to do the tedious counting. Mostly we've said 'stop
>>preaching', not 'go'. Now I did say 'go' if you can't stop preaching.
>>But the conditions there are fairly cleanly laid out. We really aren't
>>hostile, we're just not inclined to accept insults. The difference is
>>not insignificant but often missed.
>>
>>
>>>At risk of being accused of nitpicking I should mention that Greece is
> in
>>>the Eurozone, by the way.
>>>
>>
>>I don't keep track of who's in and whose out. But what with The Former
>>Yugoslavian State of Macedonia (close if not accurate) I should have
>>remembered.
>
>
> "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". They wanted to be just plain
> Macedonia, but the Greeks objected.
>
Republic - thanks.
> The Greeks have also been the main culprits for keeping Turkey out of the
> EU.
> Or the main benefactors, depending on which way you look at it.
> Certainly they seem to have a big voice for a little country.
>
>
Not to mention the Euro-bias. And the fact that Turkey is between
Europe and nations that are close to falling apart. Allowing entry
might require actually helping in case of problems. France and others
like barriers they don't have to maintain.
>>>>>>>>>Could you put
>>>>>>>>>the Christian gospel in your own words for me, so that I can see
>>>>>whether
>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>are rejecting what we are actually trying to say or only what you
>>>think
>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>>are trying to say.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As I iterate above, there is no need. Your "message" is
>>>>>>>>summarily rejected by this poster. Is that clear enough, Davey?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's clear that when I asked you to summarise what our message was,
> you
>>>>>>didn't do it.
It would be doing your work after all, wouldn't it?
>>>>>>>There's still a risk in my mind that you don't know what you're
>>>>>rejecting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
It isn't a risk to us.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Perfect understanding is not required for a thoughtful rejection.
>>>>>>That's assuming of course that your offer is all that complicated,
> which
>>>>>>to me it isn't. It's just awful is all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's up to you.
>>>>
>>>>That's it! That's what I've been saying! See, you can get it.
>>>>Congratulations.
>>>
>>>
>>>I've known that all along, though.
>>>
>>
>>Then your preaching was being rude and shame on you.
>
>
> No, no. It is not rude for me to have different opinions and express them.
> That's part of what makes up a pluralist society.
>
>
If you rephrase enough you change the meaning. Expressing your opinions
is what we all do. Preaching is what you and others did. We objected
and were clear about it, and our objections were dismissed. That's rude.
>>>>>No one can force you into accepting Christ as your personal saviour.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>True.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>3. Is your first name Timothy and do you come from the UK?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No, the first name is Trevor and I come from another land.
>>>>>>>>Are you actually posting from Warsaw, Davey?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am, Trevor.
>>>>>>>Right from the heart of Warsaw.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uncle Davey, with a good Polish beer in hand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Can't you save the Catholics, Davey? There's already common ground.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I can't save anybody, but we did have three newcomers who were
> catholics
>>>in
>>>>>Church today.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Good for you.
>>>
>>>
>>>The sermon they heard will have given them a wake-up call.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I looked up your name in a Hungarian dictionary but I couldn't find it
>>>as a
>>>>>word.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am curious as to the origin. It sounds like either the Slavic root
> for
>>>>>'grain' or the root for 'heat', but the spelling is rather Hungarian,
>>>than
>>>>>Slavic...
>>>>>
>>>>>Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>Uncle Davey
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes it is Hungarian. BTW, 4 languages is impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>>The info came up as a full page and doesn't cut and paste to text.
>>>>Besides, I thought you'd be amused:
>>>>
> http://dict.sztaki.hu/ <trimmed url>
>>>You might like to look at www.tinyurl.com for moments like this. That
> having
>>>been said I had no difficulty retrieving it. Thank you for that.
>>>I can't believe a word like that wasn't in my dictionary. I wonder what
> the
>>>etymology is.
>>>
>>
>>Hungarians can be painfully polite. They often go around the stronger
>>phrases. But they know them.
>>
>
> They are a courteous lot if you don't consider the driving.
>
I'm going to do the Ugly American thing and ask if anyone in Europe
knows how to drive well. Visited a couple countries when a kid and you
could always tell the US drivers.
> Other than the Poles they are the only people left where the men routinely
> kiss the ladies hands.
>
Well that's always a potential ick.
>
>>>>
>>>>What can I say? I was called this by someone I had mildly perturbed.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Strangely enough I started to be called 'Davey' when an atheist friend
> used
>>>that on me, teasing me for evangelising. He said I was like the
> character
>>>'davey'
>>>on some children's Christian programme in America. Before that I had
> been
>>>posting under my full name.
>>>
>>
>>Oh Gads! You don't know how many times I wished the donkey would nail
>>that little clay boy. Sorry, but that is funny.
>
>
> Well, anyway. It was an atheist friend that gave that clay boy's name to me.
> I put the Uncle in front later as a bit of humour as I was giving a lot of
> 'agony aunt' style advice at the time, and everybody said it seemed to suit
> me.
>
>
>>>>Zsarnok (Wear it proudly and with a grin.)
>>>
>>>
>>>But other than that, you're not Hungarian at all?
>>>George Mikes claimed that everyone is a little bit Hungarian.
>>>
>>>Szia.
>>>
>>>Uncle Davey
>>>
>>
>>George is Hungarian, eh? <g> For a small country you can't go anywhere
>>without finding some group of them. A bit odd, that. Yes Hungarians
>>are in my ancestry. The appelation came from a loving family member.
>>Natch.
>>
>>Zsarnok
>
>
> If I don't spend all my life in Poland, then Hungary, Latvia and Wales are
> my list of countries to retire to.
>
> Or maybe somewhere in South America.
>
> Uncle Davey
>
Interesting list.
Zsarnok
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