news:bfvcj5$j6unr$1@ID-138339.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Nunya" <yah@right.com> wrote in message
> news:FtGUa.24814$zd4.5878@lakeread02...
> >
> > "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> > news:bfqlhn$qb0$1@news.onet.pl...
> > >
> > > news:861Ua.29236$xn5.4727322@news0.telusplanet.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Michaela" <michaelamackenzie05072001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3271bf15.0307232222.6ed33bf1@posting.google.com...
> > > > > http://www.petitiononline.com/stopgod/petition.html
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm .... this is a good starting point for a discussion esp. on
> > > > alt.fan.uncle-davey, the newsgroup of which I am adding, to see
> > > > if my uncle davey has some comments ......
> > > >
> > > > la n.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What comes to mind is that God is the creator, he made us, and we did
> not
> > > make ourselves. He can do what he likes with us, and we are very much
on
> > the
> > > receiving end. We cannot dictate to him.
> >
> > Actually even according to the bible that's a debatable point. :) In
> > Genesis the actual word used to describe the diety who created the
earth,
> > heavens, people in their image, etc is "Elohim" which is plural, i.e.
> Gods.
Sure. Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the three are one. Hence you have a
plural ending 'im' even though the 'eloh' root comes from a verbal ending in
the singular. The name of God expresses the for us difficult to grasp
trinitarian concept.
> > It reads to me as describing an entire pantheon of dieties.
Three is quite enough. Don't be greedy.
Whereas if
> you
> > continue reading Genesis it changes to Yahweh, a singular name for
"Lord".
It is a form from the verb 'to be', again, another unique form, hence in the
early part of Exodus, where the term is first expressed, the translators
have generally translated this as 'I am that I am'.
> > Meaning a single diety created Eden, Adam, and Eve. Cain even took a
wife
> > from another land, so where did she come from? (Answer: the Land of Nod,
> the
> > "Other People")
> >
You must understand that there is no tradition in the recording of ancient
genealogies to give a comprehensive record of all the children and all the
children's children. Only in the case of the thirteen children of Jacob do
we see a full account, because obviously they become the twelve tribes of
Israel and so it is significant, (at least up to the time of Rehoboam's
shabby policy decision after the death of Solomon, and the subsequent
defection of all tribes but Judah) . Normally only one line is shown.
Otherwise from Noah we would have millions of people and no room for
anything else in the Bible by the time we get to the end of the period
covered.
Obviously Eve will have had many, many daughters and people were so vigorous
at the time close to time zero that the incest, which was evidently not
sinful either at that time, did not cause significant weakening. The
depletion of the gene pool after the flood was presumably one reason
subsequent generations started living only around seventy years, and it
hasn't got much better till today, for all of the advances in medicine and
modern living. Even after the incest with Lot by his daughters after they
escaped from Sodom and Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt
> > So whenever someone tries to tell me that I'm somehow subject to their
> God's
> > will, I simply point out that I'm one of the "Other People". :) I have
my
> > own dieties.
> >
But do they have you though? That's the question. Or are they just in your
head or hanging on your wall?
> > The last two sentences of yours I totally agree with. We cannot dictate
> to
> > diety, they do as they please with us.
> >
> > >
> > > This petition is for God to 'stop making bad things happen', but this
> > > presupposes that human beings have a higher morality than their own
> > creator.
> > > This is not a frame of mind to come to God in. If God sends plagues
and
> > > misery into this current world, then that is by definition not a bad
> > thing,
> > > but serves whatever purposes he is working out. And they are grand and
> > > mysterious purposes beyond our understanding.
> >
> > But isn't that just an excuse? Why is there such a need for some xians
to
> > believe that their god is nothing but good and can do no evil? The
bible
> > itself is full of contradictions. Hell he even lied to Adam! Isn't it
> > possible that God is not good and not evil? That he just is?
> >
The world is convinced, despite the fact that its best legal experts are
pathetically fallible and the courts in any country are a lottery, after so
many years to get it right, that they know what is good and bad and can
dictate those ideas to God. What they need to grasp is that 'good' means
what God says it means and not what they think it means.
> > >
> > > The expression 'it's not funny any more' is also out of place. As
> > creatures
> > > of dust we are ill qualified to assess what counts as humorous in the
> > courts
> > > of eternity.
> >
> > Very very true.
> >
Thank you.
> > It's bad enough when you get priggish people who sit in
> > > judgment on each others sense of humour and decide on behalf of the
> world
> > > what's funny and what isn't. All the more when someone tries to reign
in
> > the
> > > sense of humour of the most high. Who made them the arbiter of what is
> > funny
> > > and what isn't?
> > >
> > > The definition of classical comedy in Greek drama is that things turn
> out
> > > well in the end. And we know that 'eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,
nor
> > > hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared
> for
> > > them that love him'.
> > >
> > > The definition of tragedy is that owing to some flaw in the character
of
> > the
> > > hero, he comes to grief even though the answer was within his grasp.
> > >
> > > Throughout the world, the lives of people fall into one of these two
> > > categories, comedy or tragedy, depending on what they do with the
> Gospel,
> > > the message of Christ, very God and very Man, who suffered and died on
> the
> > > cross for our sins, paying the punishment for these sins so that
anyone
> > > entering into a covenant with Him by repentance and faith can be saved
> to
> > > the uttermost, although they have no goodness in themselves.
> >
> > So even if someone has been nothing but evil all their lives, has
> murdered,
> > robbed, and raped...if on their deathbed they call to Christ and confess
> > their sins they automatically get into Heaven?
> >
Yes, and the sufferings suffered by Christ for that person outstrip by far
the pain he caused to other sinners.
It's also possible for the robbee and rapee and murderee of that person to
have died in rebellion and be looking up at their plunderer in heaven in
absolute amazement. But by coming to Christ and getting forgiveness for
their own sins instead of applying to human wisdom, they could have had
their sufferings compensated beyond all imagining in heaven.
Now human wisdom is such, that the robber and rapist can sue the victim for
damages if they fight back. I see that as far less just than making
salvation dependent on belief in the Gospel, not on works, but do we see
atheists making big protests about that? Of course not. It's the faithless
who are chiefly responsible for that state of affairs.
> > This is
> > > available to everyone, and can be brought near to anyone by reading
the
> > > Bible and praying. For those who accept the gift of God, namely
> salvation
> > in
> > > Christ, all's well that end's well. For those who turn away because
they
> > > reject God and want to know better than God what is right and what is
> > wrong,
> > > are like drowning men who reject the lifeboat that is sent for them
> > because
> > > they do not like the colour. Tragic it is, and not funny. But God's
> fault
> > it
> > > most certainly is not.
> >
> > The last part is true. I have to find fault that we all need to be
> "saved"
> > though. Personally I plan on going to the Summerlands...
> >
I haven't been given a map of Heaven, so I cannot comment about the exact
location of the part you describe.
> > >
> > > For those who do accept Christ, God shall wipe every tear from their
> eyes
> > > and give them a glorious eternal inheritance, in the light of which
the
> > > worst of their earthly suffering shall be remembered no more than a
> grown
> > > man remembers the pain of cutting his first baby tooth.
> >
> > Now if he could just help me forget everything while I'm here I'd be
> happy.
> > :) But then again forgetting everything I've learned won't help much
upon
> > my reincarnation as a tree. :D
> >
I think you may-ple be j-oak-ing.
> > -Shell
> > **Not trying to be argumentative, I just love good theological debate.**
> >
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Uncle Davey
> > >
>
>
> I love a good theological debate too, and that's why
> I added Uncle Davey's fan group to the issue and why
> I've put it on again.
>
> I'm guessing, Shell, that your server doesn't carry
> alt.fan.uncle-davey, as your response to him didn't
> include alt.fan.uncle-davey.
A lot of them don't.
If the traffic is kept up, and people ask their ISPs, then more will take
it.
Quite a few of the alt. category groups are deserted or just full of spam,
so I can't blame ISPs for not carrying them all by default.
> Uncle Davey is an extremely intelligent individual who
> can discourse on a number of topics, kind of like that
> woman in the U.S. - "Von Savant" or somesuch, who
> writes - or used to write - a column in a magazine
> answering people's questions, or giving her perspective,
> on a number of issues.
>
Thank you for your kind words.
> So, Uncle Davey, if you would like to respond to
> "Nunya's" comments, I'm sure this poster would
> be amenable to continuing this interesting discussion ... :)
>
> la n.
>
I am more than happy. Thank you for reposting it, as I would definitely have
missed it otherwise.
Best,
Uncle Davey
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