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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: I Rescind My Offer
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:58:05 +0100
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> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
> > "t_naismith" wrote:
> > > "Uncle Davey" wrote:
> > >
> > > > I had a crack at answering this a few days ago, but I lost it ...
> > >
> > > If I were to extrapolate, you seem to have lost it far earlier
> > > and in far more ways.
> >
> > I couldn't have lost it before you wrote it.
> > That just, like, stands to reason.
> >
> What you've lost has less to do with posting and
> more elusive than trolling arw is for you.
"I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind, but now I'm free"
> > > > ... and I hate
> > > > redoing things, but at the same time I don't like leaving things
> > > unanswered
> > > > knowingly.
> > > >
> > > Well, hop back into the cauldron, missionary - there are
> > > heads to be shrunken and hood ornaments to be made of
> > > them.
> >
> > your experiments with an antidote to viagra overdose are nothing to me.
> >
> That's the best you can come up with, troll?
> I've over-estimated you, Davey. My bad, man.
What's the secret potion for keeping a straight face at my jokes, then,
Trevor?
>
> > > > So let's hope I don't lose it this time...
> > > >
> > > As I'd estimated, it's a bit late for that.
> >
> > well, since you answered it's proof it didn't get lost this time.
> >
> That whooshing sound you hear over your head is not
> necessarily your helium-filled sex doll, Davey.
Like I didn't understand what you were on about, and wasn't thinking
discretion the better part of valour!
> > > > "t_naismith" wrote:
> > > > > "Uncle Davey" wrote:
> > > > > > "t_naismith" wrote:
> > > > > > > "Jason Gastritis" burped up this mess:
> > > >
> > > > <snippage of the old stuff which remains unrefuted>
> > > >
> > > > > > Your style is quite amusing, I have to admit, even though you're
> > > > attacking
> > > > > > my friend.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure we want to evangelize you. There has been no attempt to
hide
> > the
> > > > fact
> > > > > > that we like to spread the Gospel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Actually, your buddies Jason and Ariaane went to some
> > > > > superficial lengths to deny that they were here in a.r.w. to
> > > > > _evangelize_. So, who is lying, you or they?
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure I agree with you. I doubt they would have denied
> > evangelizing
> > > > when we are commanded to evangelise.
> > > >
> > > Their posts are archived. In their own words. Would you
> > > like to reconsider your doubt?
> >
> > instead of me plowing through everything they wrote, could you kindly be
a
> > bit more specific.
> >
> Look at Jason's initial cross-post to a.r.w., then look at his denials
> of evangelizing and finally, (Ariaan's initial denials of this as well),
and
> finally, check their subsequent admissions to doing so _after_ being
> called on it. They lied. How can liars carry a message of truth?
First of all, we don't have to be perfect to carry a perfect message, and
secondly I still don't really get it. Maybe I am bad at googling but the
record doesn't seem to go right back to the initial post, I don't know if
someone has been x-no-archiving. I can only say from memory that I don't
remeber any denial of evangelical motive by Jason or by Ariaan.
And certainly not by me.
>
> > > > > > We nevertheless like to do it in a reasoned way, dealing with
and
> > > > reacting
> > > > > > to the points of faith in other people's world views.
> > > > > >
> > > > > By and large, few if any here would wish to here your
> > > > > evangelizing, no matter what form it takes.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I can well imagine that.
> > >
> > > By your spin on it below, it would seem that you cannot
> > > well imagine it, Davey.
> > >
> >
> > You have no idea, Trevor. Do you imagine I was born a Christian?
> >
> I've seen hundreds very much like you in passing, Davey.
> Are you merely telling me you are a so-called 'born-again'
> xtian?
Is there any other kind?
> > > > "The carnal mind is enmity against God. It is not
> > > > subject to the laws of God, nor indeed can it be"
> > >
> > > Cool! Too bad such pronouncements don't keep
> > > the missionaries from the stewpots.
> >
> > I'm not a missionary, I'm an accountant.
>
> Then how do you account for your participation in
> missionary evangelizing here in a.r.w., Davey?
Dr. Time expensed on earth A/c
Cr. Quality of eternity control A/c
Being: Posts to Wiccan newsgroup, November 2003.
Hth.
>
> > I've got a missionary friend coming
> > for dinner tonight, but we are ordering a pizza in, I assure you.
> >
> Not to _evangelize_ one another though, right?
We played Rummikub.
>
> > > > But if we only took the
> > > > message to people who have already lost their carnal minds ...
> > >
> > > Are you suggesting that you've "lost your carnal mind(s)", or
> > > merely your mind, Davey?
> >
> > We've lost our old minds ...
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
"The sun comes up - I think about God.
The coffee cup - I think about God.
I want God so, it's like I've lost my old mind.
The morning ends - I think about God.
I talk to friends, I think about God.
And do they know it's like I've lost my old mind?
All afternoon, doing every little chore
The thought of God stays bright.
Sometimes I stand in the middle of the floor
Not going left, not going right.
I dim the lights and think about God.
Spend sleepless nights to think about God.
God said He loved me
Or was He just being kind?
Or have I lost my old mind?"
(After Sondheim)
> > >
> > > I'm taking your run-on sentence apart because you've
> > > previously conceded the excuse of English as a second
> > > language, Davey.
> >
> > It's my first language.
> > I never said it was anything other than that, Trevor.
>
> Your concession was not explicit, it was implicit, Davey.
>
Dobrze.
> > Although I do speak mainly Russian at home and Polish and German at
work.
> >
> >
> > > At any rate, the suggestion that you lot
> > > have " ... gained new minds ... " compares to some sort
> > > of 'daemonic possession'. Are you taking your daemons
> > > out for _exorcize_, Davey?
> >
> > do you think the bible calls the devil 'the prince of the power of the
> > air....obics'?
> >
> You answered the question by not answering, Davey.
> Puzzle over that.
>
Tough conundrum.
> > > > ... and had their stoney heart taken out and given a new heart ...
> > >
> > > I'm not sure that's what the Olmec, Aztec and others had in
> > > mind before the xtians stole that idea, Davey.
> >
> > i'm not a fundie, by the way, just noticing your latest amusing munge in
> the
> > follow-ups
> >
> You're just a run-of-the mill 'born-again' one-wayist then?
> Those aren't follow up munges, Davey. They are messages
> to the underground resistance.
I'm of reformed (calvinist) theology. There are numerous points of
disagreement of secondary matters between us and the so-called
fundamentalists. In particular our views about end-time prophesy differ, and
our views on the baptism of infants differ.
But our belief in the gospel, and the infallibility of scripture, is the
same.
>
> > > > ... then what
> > > > sort of evangelists would we be???
> > > >
> > > As a good guess, I'd say very inept evangelists.
> >
> > That's what we would be, if we only preached to the converted.
> >
> ... Or, charging panzers on horseback ...
Pink panzers.
>
> > > > > > By propounding your views as we propounded ours, you had all the
> > > chance
> > > > to
> > > > > > make converts of us, humanly speaking, as we had to make
converts
> of
> > > > you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Ah, therein lies a difference in paradigms, Davey. Most pagans
> do
> > > > > not wish to make "converts" of you lot and mainly would do as
> they've
> > > > > done; request that you cease and desist. These requests have
ranged
> > > > > from polite to more, shall we say, direct? All have been
> disregarded
> > by
> > > > > you and your fellow missionaries.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not true. Ariaan has bid you farewell, Jason seems to be
disengaging.
> > > >
> > > More accurately, Jason huffed off and whined in your NG while
> > > Ariaan merely raised a white flag and buggered-off.
> > > Regardless, evangelizing by other missionaries will be equally
> > > ineffective. Yours included, Davey.
> >
> > Well, that's not up to you or me. Maybe you are right, maybe not.
> >
> I write only concerning my viewpoint, true. So, how many 'wiccans'
> have you _converted_ thus far from a.r.w., Davey?
>
I don't convert anybody. That's up to God.
> > > > > > I say 'humanly speaking', because all true conversion is only
done
> > by
> > > > God
> > > > > > anyway, and we only plant seeds, we don't make them germinate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Then wheel your "g-d" in here and let 'im try, why does 'he'
need
> > > > > willing missionaries to do 'his' dirty work?
> > > >
> > > > Actually, He doesn't.
> > >
> Wheel him in, then. Not babble from some book where
> you purport he 'speaks'. Do it now.
'Wheel him in'. You wish.
> > > If you are sure of this theory, test it by ceasing to do
> > > this dirty-work. Can you, is your 'faith' strong enough,
> > > Davey?
> >
> > I have no difficulty at all in not evangelising. Being, by nature, a
lazy
> > bastard. It's the telling of the truth to people that don't appreciate
it,
> > that demands a bit of an effort.
> >
> I agree that you appear to be having some difficulty
> lying well. It is probably due to that laziness you mentioned.
I don't do lies, mainly because there is nothing to be gained by it.
>
> > I still certainly believe that God will surely call in his elect whether
I
> > am here or not.
> >
> If you feel that way, why not show some courage of your
> convictions and let that happen instead of flailing on about
> it here?
>
I am just answering questions. Not to do so would be the heighth of
ignorance.
> > > > But we are priveledged to be offered a small role in
> > > > God's calling in His kingdom.
> > > >
> > > Uh-huh. As cannon fodder.
> >
> > No job too small.
> >
> So now you imagine yourself as a _martyr_, Davey?
>
That was your cannonfodder image, not mine.
I said it was a priviledge.
> > > > > > Nevertheless, it has disturbed some of my brethren, (not myself
I
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > > > say, as I am so wicked by nature I am past being shocked by
> > anything),
> > > > > that
> > > > > > there has been a stream of blasphemy and crudity from some
> > > participants,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > this wasn't what they had in mind when they came here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > The responses have been precisely-gauged to suit specific
> > > > > instances.
> > > > >
> > > > > > You are saying you didn't want to be evangelised, and at the
same
> > time
> > > > you
> > > > > > are calling Jason chicken for announcing a retirement from the
> > debate,
> > > a
> > > > > > sure fire way of making someone go the distance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > No, you fail to comprehend what was stated, Davey.
> > > > > Jason was berated for starting a cross-posted incursion
> > > > > into a.r.w. and then a 'brave exit speech' which equates
> > > > > to buggering-off after he didn't like the response to this.
> > > > > At no point in the past has he indicated that he is able to
> > > > > participate in a "debate", (which is not demonstrated by
> > > > > his various announced claims but, by participating in them).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, he is a very fine debater.
> > >
> > > No, he is/was not anything of the sort. Proclamations which
> > > are contrary to his failure to demonstrate such a claim are empty.
> > >
> > > > If you disregard for one moment
> > > > your distaste for his credo...
> > >
> > > It is he that cannot disregard it, momentarily or not.
> > > Since such a "credo" of dogma is so irrevocably tied
> > > in with his evangelistic agenda, actual "debate" remains
> > > as elusive as what you guys put your blind faith into.
> > >
> >
> > You may say that, but if you look you will see that there are debates on
> > Usenet where he is making short work of some acclaimed skeptics.
> >
> I did post just that; based upon his extraordinarily-poor performance
> in a.r.w. recently. The missionary ended up as stew, not the other
> way around, Davey.
That's always been the way with missionaries.
They end up as stew, and then, strangely, the tribes that do it to them have
Christian revivals.
>
> > {Jason, if you're reading this, where was that link to that debating
> website
> > again?}
> >
> Jason has posted that he has me kill-filed. So much for courage of
> convictions, eh Davey?
I don't see why I need to speak for him. He has the opinion that it is time
to leave. I am rather more tenacious. Nevertheless I offered to go if voted
out.
That is out of respect for democracy.
> > > > ... look at the website and assess the high quality
> > > > of some of the debating in their. there are even publicised phone
> > debates
> > > he
> > > > has had.
> > > >
> > > If he wants to _debate_, let him do so here. I'm not going
> > > looking for his evangelizing nonsense elsewhere.
> >
> > Okay, it's really up to you.
> >
> I'm here. Where is he, cowering - in "free.xtians"?
He's not posting a lot at the moment, unfortunately. I always enjoy reading
his postes.
>
> > > > > > So I have a couple of questions for you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Do you want us to stay or go? (Because you gave a mixed
message
> > > > above)
> > > > > >
> > > > > Stay if wished. Do not attempt to dictate posting parameters
> > > > > to an unmoderated NG to which you lot are cross-posting _To_.
> > > > > Additionally, whining about the nature of the replies received to
> > > > > various nonsense you post merely makes you look petulant.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I haven't done it.
> > >
> > > Haven't done what; cross-posted here from your puddle or,
> > > whined?
> >
> > I haven't complained about the lack of adherence to our groups charter
by
> > you when we initiated the cross posts.
>
> Yet, did you not deny, at some point, that you were here
> to _evangelize_?
I doubt it. Show me kindly where this misunderstanding arose.
I reserve the right to share my views the same as anyone else does.
>
> > It seemed to me to lack logic, and I do try to be fair.
> >
> Evangelizing does lack logic but then, so does blind faith.
It has a certain logic, if you believe that people who do not believe the
gospel are going to hell, then evangelisation has a really pressing logic.
>
> > > > Between you and me I'm not a great big fan of
> > > > netiquette, actually.
> > > >
> > > In what way?
> >
> > <snips to chase>
> >
> > Etiquette is a question of manners, and
> > certainly it is considered almost universally bad etiquette to
evangelise
> > anyone anywhere. If we get bogged down in various forms of etiquette we
> will
> > never get the job done.
> >
> Very pseudo-sophist of you, Davey. No sale.
> Polite or not, etiquettes or not - I oppose your
> evangelizing, (in case you haven't caught on yet).
> In all its forms.
>
So, do you oppose my right to state my opinion while all other strands of
opinion are voicing their views?
> > > > > > 2. Are you aware of what the message is that we are preaching?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, and there is no need for its repetition - by either you or I.
> > > >
> > > > Hmmmmmn.
> > > >
> > > > > > Could you put
> > > > > > the Christian gospel in your own words for me, so that I can see
> > > whether
> > > > > you
> > > > > > are rejecting what we are actually trying to say or only what
you
> > > think
> > > > we
> > > > > > are trying to say.
> > > > > >
> > > > > As I iterate above, there is no need. Your "message" is
> > > > > summarily rejected by this poster. Is that clear enough, Davey?
> > > >
> > > > It's clear that when I asked you to summarise what our message was,
> you
> > > > didn't do it.
> > >
> > > No, you asked me whether I _could_ do it, (or not, implicitly).
> > > I'm choosing not to do it in order to 'evangelize for you. You
> > > aren't as subtle as you believe you are, Davey.
> > >
> > > > There's still a risk in my mind that you don't know what you're
> > rejecting.
> > > >
> > > Assume I do know what and why and give it up. You are not
> > > going to appear in a positive 'light' should you persist, Davey.
> >
> > Do I write like that bothers me greatly?
>
> Excellent, Davey. What is written, many see and most of
> it is not for your blinded eyes.
Does that mean a lot of e-mail traffic about this is going on between the
in-crowd?
>
> > I would have preferred you to have answered the question, but I'm not
> gonna
> > try and bully you into it, Trevor.
> >
> As I'd posted; I'm resistant to whichever form or
> tack you wish to take in that regard.
>
All right, all right. I'm here for you if you ever need to change your mind
about hearing about the Christian message.
> > >
> > > Born and raised in Poland? Parents too?
> >
> > No. I was born and raised in the UK.
> >
> Oh, then you are less-personally aware of the hardships in Poland
> during the second world war, or those of your family, Davey?
>
My family? I have no Polish ancestors. In the second world war my
grandparents and great grandparents, great aunts and uncles were fighting
for Britain. Some in the fire service, some in the Army, some in munitions
factories, and some in the Royal Navy.
Like most British people, they suffered less in the second world war than
the Poles, but they had suffered considerably in the First world war, whose
armistice we commemorate tomorrow.
> > How about yourself, Trevor?
> >
> I am self-created.
>
You may think so, but it really only seems that way.
Uncle Davey
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