Hee hee! I think his trolling may be sincere!
You should have had your flu shot, Jani. Aren't they free in the UK?
"Jani" <jani@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xpXpb.527$631.4941883@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Parse? Are you responsible for this?
>
> I'm not quite up to coping with someone who needs *that much help,
what with
> the 'flu and all, so if this is one of your socks, you'll have to hint
a bit
> harder.
>
> Jani
> (dropping back out again, back to the paracetomol and lemon)
>
>
> "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> news:bo9efl$1d$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
> >
> > news:_MWpb.464$mH.4526172@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > >
> > > > Nobody is threatening to take kids off to the concentration camp
if
> they
> > > > don't comply with the ecstacy craze at discos.
> > >
> > > If you support the Church militant, then you can't be in favour of
> freedom
> > > of religion ..
> >
> > That doesn't follow. the weapons of our warfare are spiritual.
> > We can fight better in a free for all, where's the fight when the
others
> > have their hands tied behind their backs?
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I personally believe in a free market of religious debate, and
the
> truth
> > > > will out.
> > >
> > > And what do you propose to do, while your particular truth isn't
> "outing"?
> > > You seem to be very sure that Christ is a sword, not a market
commodity
> ..
> > >
> >
> > The scripture is sharper than any two edged sword, but our witness
is also
> > salt and light, so we are both a sword and a commodity and an
energy.
> >
> > >
> > > > > > > > > Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem
were
> > > > innocent
> > > > > > > > > people were killed in the name of superstition.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That wasn't the policy decision of a Church, that was
the
> > > cowardice,
> > > > > > > > stupidity and panic of a local bunch of rednecks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IIRC, all legal and social policy in the Puritan
settlements was
> > > > > > established
> > > > > > > *by christians* and strictly derived from christian
religious
> > > values.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > Salem trials weren't run by atheists.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is true that in a Christian society we would probably
> criminalise
> > > > > > witchcraft, but that does not mean that we would go about it
in an
> > > > > unfeeling
> > > > > > way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, that wasn't the issue. Your "local bunch of rednecks"
were
> > > staunch
> > > > > and extremely devout christians, who had gone through
considerable
> > > > privation
> > > > > and hardship to establish a strictly christian social order.
It's
> > hardly
> > > > > accurate to say that was not directly derived from the
protestant
> > > church.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are talking about the seventeenth century and most of that
lot
> still
> > > had
> > > > the escape from the viciousness of catholicism and the
inquisition
> still
> > > in
> > > > their heads as fairly recent history.
> > >
> > > The Puritan emigrants were escaping from both catholics and
protestants,
> > > weren't they? They left not because there was too much freedom of
> > religion,
> > > but because there was too little.
> > >
> >
> > And?
> >
> > >
> > > I see no fairness in applying
> > > > universal standards to them. The protestant faiths have not
produced
> > > Salems
> > > > since.
> > >
> > > You were applying universal standards about catholicism, and Shez
called
> > you
> > > on it. Read upthread. And certainly there is the same level of
> stringency
> > in
> > > protestantism.
> >
> > We have not had a Protestant inquisition or anything like it. Some
> shameful
> > incidents have occured, which are down to sinful human nature.
Salem,
> > Calvin's burning of Servetus, the purge of Jehovah's Witnesses in
Malawi,
> > these misguided things done in the name of protestantism barely
scratch
> the
> > surface of what was done against us.
> >
> > >
> > > > > > We like them, but not their views.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, you tell your social acquaintances that they're the
antichrist?
> > You
> > > > must
> > > > > have some wonderful parties :)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > They are not. Roman Catholicism and the Papacy had that role
until
> their
> > > > power base was broken.
> > >
> > > You don't seem to know much about christian history. Are you
interested
> in
> > > christianity from a political point of view, or in terms of your
own
> > > spiritual development?
> > >
> > Both.
> >
> > > > > > > That implies that all christians, whether outwardly
evangelical
> or
> > > > not,
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > a hidden evangelical agenda .. which in turn implies that
they
> see
> > > all
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > non-christian friends as potential converts first, and
friends
> > > second.
> > > > I
> > > > > > > think that's a pretty offensive way of looking at it,
actually,
> > > don't
> > > > > you?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe if you have a friend, believe they are going to
hell,
> yet
> > do
> > > > > > nothing about it, then your friendship's not worth a great
deal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Explaining your views and your beliefs is quite sufficient.
> Friendship
> > > > does
> > > > > not equal indoctrination, unless you deliberately choose as
friends
> > > those
> > > > > who have no mind of their own. Don't you welcome discussion,
and
> > debate,
> > > > and
> > > > > insight? Most people who are secure in themselves and/ or
their
> deity,
> > > do,
> > > > > in my experience ..
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's probably what those Christians do that Shez knows
> > personally.
> > > >
> > > > But be under no illusions. We want you to be saved.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > Because we love you.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > I believe, personally, that you are going to hell. I
wish I
> > didn't
> > > > > > believe
> > > > > > > > that such a horrible destiny is currently in store for
you if
> > you
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > turn to Christ, but I do, so there we are. In that case,
if I
> > > don't
> > > > > give
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > the gospel, that Christ died so that you can go to
heaven if
> you
> > > > only
> > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > on Him and trust in Him, am I being loving to you or
not?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But you've fulfilled whatever responsibilities you feel
you
> have,
> > by
> > > > > > saying
> > > > > > > what you've just said. That done, leave it to the free
will of
> > > others
> > > > to
> > > > > > > decide.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Free will is vastly overrated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Heh. Care to elaborate?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > As in why do you even suppose you have it?
> > >
> > > Yes, that would do. I'm quite fond of Calvin. Please continue ..
> > >
> >
> > Well, it was first Luther, debating Erasmus, who spoke of the
Bondage of
> the
> > will. But Calvinism does take it further.
> >
> > I would not say that we have no experience of free will, there is
such an
> > experience. Nevertheless it is neither an absolute value nor the
holy cow
> > that some take it to be.
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is
> killfiled,
> > > > most
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to
be
> > > Christians
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of
> > > > Christianity
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't
need
> your
> > > > brand
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > lies and hate.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think if you didn't think deep down inside, that you
do need
> > it,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > not need to use such emotive terms as 'your brand of
lies and
> > > hate'.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You would just say you don't fancy it, because you've
already
> > got
> > > a
> > > > > > > > religion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That would be a reasonable response, in a society where
all
> > > religions
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > treated equally. Some of us are rather tired of having
> > christianity
> > > > > pushed
> > > > > > > in our faces at every turn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You know how we feel, then, having paganism pushed in ours.
> > > > >
> > > > > Who has done that? *You* crossposted over here, remember?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I was talking about life and the media. Here we are having an
equal
> > > > discussion, which is quite a different matter.
> > >
> > > I think you've lost track of why you started this in the first
place ..
> >
> > I didn't start anything.
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live
and
> let
> > > > live.
> > > > > > > > > And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud
you
> are
> > of
> > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the
peace,
> > and
> > > > live
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > let live.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Christ is all about battle.
> > > > > > > > Christ is not about living and letting live.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, those christians who cite "love thy neighbour" and so
on,
> are
> > > > liars?
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > do wish you guys would make your minds up ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure we love. But sometimes the 'live and let live' has
nothing to
> > do
> > > > with
> > > > > > love, only laziness.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, what do *you* understand by "love thy neighbour", then?
> > > >
> > > > Pray for him and do good if you can and witness the truth to
him.
> Don't
> > > envy
> > > > him or get in his way. Look after him if you can.
> > >
> > > Wrong.
> >
> > You asked me what *I* understood, I answered, so how is that
'wrong'?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper
its
> > written
> > > > on,
> > > > > > > > > though the music is divine the song is not
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pure emotion showing.
> > > > > > > > Love is close to hate, so you are not far from loving
God.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Heh. Who are you to judge how close someone else is to
their
> > Deity?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not. I'm saying all this hate for God is very telling.
> > > > >
> > > > > She didn't say she hated *anything*, let alone God (however
> defined).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > But the emotional terms used give the game away.
> > >
> > > Don't be silly, this is Usenet ..
> >
> > Precisely.
> >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him,
she
> > would
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > > died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through
with a
> > > > pregnancy
> > > > > > > > > shouldn't even take a moment to think about,
especially when
> > you
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > the child and the baby will die.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You seem very dogmatic about that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are a number of things to think about.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nevertheless, if an animal ovulates, it is capable in
all
> cases
> > of
> > > > > > bearing
> > > > > > > > without death.
> > > > > > > > If you believe that humans descended by evolution from
> animals,
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > odd
> > > > > > > > that you believe a pregnant young female will die. That
> doesn't
> > > > happen
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > all the other species. Just a thought.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am sure you didn't *really* mean to say that no young
pregnant
> > > > mammal
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > ever died through hormonal development exceeding other
forms of
> > > > physical
> > > > > > > growth, did you? You don't strike me as terminally stupid
> > (although
> > > I
> > > > > > > wouldn't let you loose looking after cats).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Would you stand around making sure cats didn't get pregnant
until
> > they
> > > > > were
> > > > > > good and ready?
> > > > >
> > > > > If you keep domestic cats, that is a requirement, yes. Unless
you
> > happen
> > > > to
> > > > > enjoy watching small creatures die in agony, which I don't,
> > personally.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You must really think I'm wet behind the ears or something. Who
does
> > that
> > > in
> > > > the wild??
> > >
> > > Then how do you know that every mammal who ovulates survives
pregnancy
> and
> > > birth?
> > >
> >
> > They were made that way, they can't help it.
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Please. Animals start to ovulate when they are ready to give
birth
> > and
> > > > not
> > > > > > before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Animals ovulate when their hormone balance is ready. Depending
on
> > > > heredity,
> > > > > nutrition and numerous other factors, ovulation does *not*
mean they
> > are
> > > > > also capable of pregnancy and birth.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's good to note a lot of non-belief in evolution in this
here
> arw
> > > > group.
> > > > >
> > > > > Heh. How do you figure that out?
> > > >
> > > > People seem to think that humans are very different from
animals.
> > > >
> > > > That's true, we are.
> > > >
> > > > precisely because we did not evolve from them.
> > >
> > > *grin* So, you're not animal. Are you a plant, a fungus, or what?
> >
> > I am a human, a triune creature made in the image of God, with body,
soul
> > and spirit.
> > Bruised and broken by the fall, but included by faith in the
covenant with
> > God.
> >
> > > > > > > > > I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out
of a
> > lying,
> > > > > power
> > > > > > > > > mad church and found their own spiritual path, that
some of
> > them
> > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > > a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly
don't
> belong
> > > to
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > church you belong to.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do you know what I belong to?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are you going to tell us, or is it a trade secret?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No secret. I belong I N C H R I S T.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By faith in his blood spilt on calvary, and not by my own
> deserving,
> > > > which
> > > > > > is non-existant, me being by nature a worse rotter than the
rest
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > rotters on here put together.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I doubt that, to be honest ... but why do you choose to
be in
> a
> > > > faith
> > > > > which demeans you in that way?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jani
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It stands to reason that this demeaning, as you call it, is the
only
> way
> > > to
> > > > be cleansed.
> > >
> > > It doesn't stand to reason at all, but ....
> > > >
> > > > Every other religion has people cleansing themselves.
> > >
> > > Yes, that is not a matter of belief systems per se, it's practical
as
> > well.
> > > You don't paint over old wallpaper, you don't put another layer of
> make-up
> > > over the first (that's not a girlie thing, by the way, that's
> greasepaint)
> > > >
> > > > But only ours has christ doing all, with ourselves as incapable
of
> > adding
> > > an
> > > > ything.
> > > >
> > > > This is the offense of the cross.
> > >
> > > So, what stops you all from killing yourselves? If it's all done,
all
> > > sorted, and you're all inferior, what on earth is the damn point?
> > > >
> > > > And I didn't choose the religion. The religion, if you like,
chose me.
> > >
> > > And it told you that you were incapable of adding anything to
anything.
> Do
> > > you see something rather nasty and vicious there?
> > >
> > > Jani
> > >
> > >
> >
> > No, I see Someone who paid my debt for me.
> >
> > And I am all gratitude.
> >
> > Uncle Davey
> >
> >
>
>
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