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From: "Jani" <jani@blueyonder.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
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Subject: Re: Hello Wiccans
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Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:22:53 GMT
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Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder)
Xref: news.nzbot.com alt.fan.uncle-davey:330
Parse? Are you responsible for this?
I'm not quite up to coping with someone who needs *that much help, what with
the 'flu and all, so if this is one of your socks, you'll have to hint a bit
harder.
Jani
(dropping back out again, back to the paracetomol and lemon)
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:bo9efl$1d$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
>
> news:_MWpb.464$mH.4526172@news-text.cableinet.net...
> >
> > > Nobody is threatening to take kids off to the concentration camp if
they
> > > don't comply with the ecstacy craze at discos.
> >
> > If you support the Church militant, then you can't be in favour of
freedom
> > of religion ..
>
> That doesn't follow. the weapons of our warfare are spiritual.
> We can fight better in a free for all, where's the fight when the others
> have their hands tied behind their backs?
>
> >
> > >
> > > I personally believe in a free market of religious debate, and the
truth
> > > will out.
> >
> > And what do you propose to do, while your particular truth isn't
"outing"?
> > You seem to be very sure that Christ is a sword, not a market commodity
..
> >
>
> The scripture is sharper than any two edged sword, but our witness is also
> salt and light, so we are both a sword and a commodity and an energy.
>
> >
> > > > > > > > Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem were
> > > innocent
> > > > > > > > people were killed in the name of superstition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That wasn't the policy decision of a Church, that was the
> > cowardice,
> > > > > > > stupidity and panic of a local bunch of rednecks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IIRC, all legal and social policy in the Puritan settlements was
> > > > > established
> > > > > > *by christians* and strictly derived from christian religious
> > values.
> > > > The
> > > > > > Salem trials weren't run by atheists.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is true that in a Christian society we would probably
criminalise
> > > > > witchcraft, but that does not mean that we would go about it in an
> > > > unfeeling
> > > > > way.
> > > >
> > > > Again, that wasn't the issue. Your "local bunch of rednecks" were
> > staunch
> > > > and extremely devout christians, who had gone through considerable
> > > privation
> > > > and hardship to establish a strictly christian social order. It's
> hardly
> > > > accurate to say that was not directly derived from the protestant
> > church.
> > >
> > >
> > > We are talking about the seventeenth century and most of that lot
still
> > had
> > > the escape from the viciousness of catholicism and the inquisition
still
> > in
> > > their heads as fairly recent history.
> >
> > The Puritan emigrants were escaping from both catholics and protestants,
> > weren't they? They left not because there was too much freedom of
> religion,
> > but because there was too little.
> >
>
> And?
>
> >
> > I see no fairness in applying
> > > universal standards to them. The protestant faiths have not produced
> > Salems
> > > since.
> >
> > You were applying universal standards about catholicism, and Shez called
> you
> > on it. Read upthread. And certainly there is the same level of
stringency
> in
> > protestantism.
>
> We have not had a Protestant inquisition or anything like it. Some
shameful
> incidents have occured, which are down to sinful human nature. Salem,
> Calvin's burning of Servetus, the purge of Jehovah's Witnesses in Malawi,
> these misguided things done in the name of protestantism barely scratch
the
> surface of what was done against us.
>
> >
> > > > > We like them, but not their views.
> > > >
> > > > So, you tell your social acquaintances that they're the antichrist?
> You
> > > must
> > > > have some wonderful parties :)
> > > >
> > >
> > > They are not. Roman Catholicism and the Papacy had that role until
their
> > > power base was broken.
> >
> > You don't seem to know much about christian history. Are you interested
in
> > christianity from a political point of view, or in terms of your own
> > spiritual development?
> >
> Both.
>
> > > > > > That implies that all christians, whether outwardly evangelical
or
> > > not,
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a hidden evangelical agenda .. which in turn implies that they
see
> > all
> > > > > their
> > > > > > non-christian friends as potential converts first, and friends
> > second.
> > > I
> > > > > > think that's a pretty offensive way of looking at it, actually,
> > don't
> > > > you?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe if you have a friend, believe they are going to hell,
yet
> do
> > > > > nothing about it, then your friendship's not worth a great deal.
> > > >
> > > > Explaining your views and your beliefs is quite sufficient.
Friendship
> > > does
> > > > not equal indoctrination, unless you deliberately choose as friends
> > those
> > > > who have no mind of their own. Don't you welcome discussion, and
> debate,
> > > and
> > > > insight? Most people who are secure in themselves and/ or their
deity,
> > do,
> > > > in my experience ..
> > >
> > > Well, that's probably what those Christians do that Shez knows
> personally.
> > >
> > > But be under no illusions. We want you to be saved.
> >
> > Why?
> Because we love you.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > I believe, personally, that you are going to hell. I wish I
> didn't
> > > > > believe
> > > > > > > that such a horrible destiny is currently in store for you if
> you
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > > turn to Christ, but I do, so there we are. In that case, if I
> > don't
> > > > give
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > the gospel, that Christ died so that you can go to heaven if
you
> > > only
> > > > > call
> > > > > > > on Him and trust in Him, am I being loving to you or not?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But you've fulfilled whatever responsibilities you feel you
have,
> by
> > > > > saying
> > > > > > what you've just said. That done, leave it to the free will of
> > others
> > > to
> > > > > > decide.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Free will is vastly overrated.
> > > >
> > > > Heh. Care to elaborate?
> > > >
> > >
> > > As in why do you even suppose you have it?
> >
> > Yes, that would do. I'm quite fond of Calvin. Please continue ..
> >
>
> Well, it was first Luther, debating Erasmus, who spoke of the Bondage of
the
> will. But Calvinism does take it further.
>
> I would not say that we have no experience of free will, there is such an
> experience. Nevertheless it is neither an absolute value nor the holy cow
> that some take it to be.
>
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is
killfiled,
> > > most
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to be
> > Christians
> > > > we
> > > > > > > > could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of
> > > Christianity
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > > you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't need
your
> > > brand
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > lies and hate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think if you didn't think deep down inside, that you do need
> it,
> > > you
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > not need to use such emotive terms as 'your brand of lies and
> > hate'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You would just say you don't fancy it, because you've already
> got
> > a
> > > > > > > religion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That would be a reasonable response, in a society where all
> > religions
> > > > were
> > > > > > treated equally. Some of us are rather tired of having
> christianity
> > > > pushed
> > > > > > in our faces at every turn.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You know how we feel, then, having paganism pushed in ours.
> > > >
> > > > Who has done that? *You* crossposted over here, remember?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I was talking about life and the media. Here we are having an equal
> > > discussion, which is quite a different matter.
> >
> > I think you've lost track of why you started this in the first place ..
>
> I didn't start anything.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live and
let
> > > live.
> > > > > > > > And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud you
are
> of
> > > it,
> > > > > > > > Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the peace,
> and
> > > live
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > let live.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Christ is all about battle.
> > > > > > > Christ is not about living and letting live.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, those christians who cite "love thy neighbour" and so on,
are
> > > liars?
> > > > I
> > > > > > do wish you guys would make your minds up ...
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure we love. But sometimes the 'live and let live' has nothing to
> do
> > > with
> > > > > love, only laziness.
> > > >
> > > > So, what do *you* understand by "love thy neighbour", then?
> > >
> > > Pray for him and do good if you can and witness the truth to him.
Don't
> > envy
> > > him or get in his way. Look after him if you can.
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> You asked me what *I* understood, I answered, so how is that 'wrong'?
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper its
> written
> > > on,
> > > > > > > > though the music is divine the song is not
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pure emotion showing.
> > > > > > > Love is close to hate, so you are not far from loving God.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Heh. Who are you to judge how close someone else is to their
> Deity?
> > > > > >
> > > > > I'm not. I'm saying all this hate for God is very telling.
> > > >
> > > > She didn't say she hated *anything*, let alone God (however
defined).
> > > >
> > >
> > > But the emotional terms used give the game away.
> >
> > Don't be silly, this is Usenet ..
>
> Precisely.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him, she
> would
> > > have
> > > > > > > > died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through with a
> > > pregnancy
> > > > > > > > shouldn't even take a moment to think about, especially when
> you
> > > > know
> > > > > > > > the child and the baby will die.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You seem very dogmatic about that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are a number of things to think about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nevertheless, if an animal ovulates, it is capable in all
cases
> of
> > > > > bearing
> > > > > > > without death.
> > > > > > > If you believe that humans descended by evolution from
animals,
> it
> > > is
> > > > > odd
> > > > > > > that you believe a pregnant young female will die. That
doesn't
> > > happen
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > all the other species. Just a thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am sure you didn't *really* mean to say that no young pregnant
> > > mammal
> > > > > has
> > > > > > ever died through hormonal development exceeding other forms of
> > > physical
> > > > > > growth, did you? You don't strike me as terminally stupid
> (although
> > I
> > > > > > wouldn't let you loose looking after cats).
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Would you stand around making sure cats didn't get pregnant until
> they
> > > > were
> > > > > good and ready?
> > > >
> > > > If you keep domestic cats, that is a requirement, yes. Unless you
> happen
> > > to
> > > > enjoy watching small creatures die in agony, which I don't,
> personally.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You must really think I'm wet behind the ears or something. Who does
> that
> > in
> > > the wild??
> >
> > Then how do you know that every mammal who ovulates survives pregnancy
and
> > birth?
> >
>
> They were made that way, they can't help it.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Please. Animals start to ovulate when they are ready to give birth
> and
> > > not
> > > > > before.
> > > >
> > > > Animals ovulate when their hormone balance is ready. Depending on
> > > heredity,
> > > > nutrition and numerous other factors, ovulation does *not* mean they
> are
> > > > also capable of pregnancy and birth.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It's good to note a lot of non-belief in evolution in this here
arw
> > > group.
> > > >
> > > > Heh. How do you figure that out?
> > >
> > > People seem to think that humans are very different from animals.
> > >
> > > That's true, we are.
> > >
> > > precisely because we did not evolve from them.
> >
> > *grin* So, you're not animal. Are you a plant, a fungus, or what?
>
> I am a human, a triune creature made in the image of God, with body, soul
> and spirit.
> Bruised and broken by the fall, but included by faith in the covenant with
> God.
>
> > > > > > > > I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out of a
> lying,
> > > > power
> > > > > > > > mad church and found their own spiritual path, that some of
> them
> > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly don't
belong
> > to
> > > > any
> > > > > > > > church you belong to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do you know what I belong to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are you going to tell us, or is it a trade secret?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No secret. I belong I N C H R I S T.
> > > > >
> > > > > By faith in his blood spilt on calvary, and not by my own
deserving,
> > > which
> > > > > is non-existant, me being by nature a worse rotter than the rest
of
> > the
> > > > > rotters on here put together.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I doubt that, to be honest ... but why do you choose to be in
a
> > > faith
> > > > which demeans you in that way?
> > > >
> > > > Jani
> > > >
> > >
> > > It stands to reason that this demeaning, as you call it, is the only
way
> > to
> > > be cleansed.
> >
> > It doesn't stand to reason at all, but ....
> > >
> > > Every other religion has people cleansing themselves.
> >
> > Yes, that is not a matter of belief systems per se, it's practical as
> well.
> > You don't paint over old wallpaper, you don't put another layer of
make-up
> > over the first (that's not a girlie thing, by the way, that's
greasepaint)
> > >
> > > But only ours has christ doing all, with ourselves as incapable of
> adding
> > an
> > > ything.
> > >
> > > This is the offense of the cross.
> >
> > So, what stops you all from killing yourselves? If it's all done, all
> > sorted, and you're all inferior, what on earth is the damn point?
> > >
> > > And I didn't choose the religion. The religion, if you like, chose me.
> >
> > And it told you that you were incapable of adding anything to anything.
Do
> > you see something rather nasty and vicious there?
> >
> > Jani
> >
> >
>
> No, I see Someone who paid my debt for me.
>
> And I am all gratitude.
>
> Uncle Davey
>
>
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