news:_MWpb.464$mH.4526172@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> > Nobody is threatening to take kids off to the concentration camp if they
> > don't comply with the ecstacy craze at discos.
>
> If you support the Church militant, then you can't be in favour of freedom
> of religion ..
That doesn't follow. the weapons of our warfare are spiritual.
We can fight better in a free for all, where's the fight when the others
have their hands tied behind their backs?
>
> >
> > I personally believe in a free market of religious debate, and the truth
> > will out.
>
> And what do you propose to do, while your particular truth isn't "outing"?
> You seem to be very sure that Christ is a sword, not a market commodity ..
>
The scripture is sharper than any two edged sword, but our witness is also
salt and light, so we are both a sword and a commodity and an energy.
>
> > > > > > > Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem were
> > innocent
> > > > > > > people were killed in the name of superstition.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That wasn't the policy decision of a Church, that was the
> cowardice,
> > > > > > stupidity and panic of a local bunch of rednecks.
> > > > >
> > > > > IIRC, all legal and social policy in the Puritan settlements was
> > > > established
> > > > > *by christians* and strictly derived from christian religious
> values.
> > > The
> > > > > Salem trials weren't run by atheists.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is true that in a Christian society we would probably criminalise
> > > > witchcraft, but that does not mean that we would go about it in an
> > > unfeeling
> > > > way.
> > >
> > > Again, that wasn't the issue. Your "local bunch of rednecks" were
> staunch
> > > and extremely devout christians, who had gone through considerable
> > privation
> > > and hardship to establish a strictly christian social order. It's
hardly
> > > accurate to say that was not directly derived from the protestant
> church.
> >
> >
> > We are talking about the seventeenth century and most of that lot still
> had
> > the escape from the viciousness of catholicism and the inquisition still
> in
> > their heads as fairly recent history.
>
> The Puritan emigrants were escaping from both catholics and protestants,
> weren't they? They left not because there was too much freedom of
religion,
> but because there was too little.
>
And?
>
> I see no fairness in applying
> > universal standards to them. The protestant faiths have not produced
> Salems
> > since.
>
> You were applying universal standards about catholicism, and Shez called
you
> on it. Read upthread. And certainly there is the same level of stringency
in
> protestantism.
We have not had a Protestant inquisition or anything like it. Some shameful
incidents have occured, which are down to sinful human nature. Salem,
Calvin's burning of Servetus, the purge of Jehovah's Witnesses in Malawi,
these misguided things done in the name of protestantism barely scratch the
surface of what was done against us.
>
> > > > We like them, but not their views.
> > >
> > > So, you tell your social acquaintances that they're the antichrist?
You
> > must
> > > have some wonderful parties :)
> > >
> >
> > They are not. Roman Catholicism and the Papacy had that role until their
> > power base was broken.
>
> You don't seem to know much about christian history. Are you interested in
> christianity from a political point of view, or in terms of your own
> spiritual development?
>
Both.
> > > > > That implies that all christians, whether outwardly evangelical or
> > not,
> > > > have
> > > > > a hidden evangelical agenda .. which in turn implies that they see
> all
> > > > their
> > > > > non-christian friends as potential converts first, and friends
> second.
> > I
> > > > > think that's a pretty offensive way of looking at it, actually,
> don't
> > > you?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe if you have a friend, believe they are going to hell, yet
do
> > > > nothing about it, then your friendship's not worth a great deal.
> > >
> > > Explaining your views and your beliefs is quite sufficient. Friendship
> > does
> > > not equal indoctrination, unless you deliberately choose as friends
> those
> > > who have no mind of their own. Don't you welcome discussion, and
debate,
> > and
> > > insight? Most people who are secure in themselves and/ or their deity,
> do,
> > > in my experience ..
> >
> > Well, that's probably what those Christians do that Shez knows
personally.
> >
> > But be under no illusions. We want you to be saved.
>
> Why?
Because we love you.
>
> >
> > >
> > > > > > I believe, personally, that you are going to hell. I wish I
didn't
> > > > believe
> > > > > > that such a horrible destiny is currently in store for you if
you
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > turn to Christ, but I do, so there we are. In that case, if I
> don't
> > > give
> > > > > you
> > > > > > the gospel, that Christ died so that you can go to heaven if you
> > only
> > > > call
> > > > > > on Him and trust in Him, am I being loving to you or not?
> > > > >
> > > > > But you've fulfilled whatever responsibilities you feel you have,
by
> > > > saying
> > > > > what you've just said. That done, leave it to the free will of
> others
> > to
> > > > > decide.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Free will is vastly overrated.
> > >
> > > Heh. Care to elaborate?
> > >
> >
> > As in why do you even suppose you have it?
>
> Yes, that would do. I'm quite fond of Calvin. Please continue ..
>
Well, it was first Luther, debating Erasmus, who spoke of the Bondage of the
will. But Calvinism does take it further.
I would not say that we have no experience of free will, there is such an
experience. Nevertheless it is neither an absolute value nor the holy cow
that some take it to be.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is killfiled,
> > most
> > > of
> > > > > > > us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to be
> Christians
> > > we
> > > > > > > could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of
> > Christianity
> > > > than
> > > > > > > you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't need your
> > brand
> > > of
> > > > > > > lies and hate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think if you didn't think deep down inside, that you do need
it,
> > you
> > > > > would
> > > > > > not need to use such emotive terms as 'your brand of lies and
> hate'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You would just say you don't fancy it, because you've already
got
> a
> > > > > > religion.
> > > > >
> > > > > That would be a reasonable response, in a society where all
> religions
> > > were
> > > > > treated equally. Some of us are rather tired of having
christianity
> > > pushed
> > > > > in our faces at every turn.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You know how we feel, then, having paganism pushed in ours.
> > >
> > > Who has done that? *You* crossposted over here, remember?
> > >
> >
> > I was talking about life and the media. Here we are having an equal
> > discussion, which is quite a different matter.
>
> I think you've lost track of why you started this in the first place ..
I didn't start anything.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live and let
> > live.
> > > > > > > And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud you are
of
> > it,
> > > > > > > Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the peace,
and
> > live
> > > > and
> > > > > > > let live.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Christ is all about battle.
> > > > > > Christ is not about living and letting live.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, those christians who cite "love thy neighbour" and so on, are
> > liars?
> > > I
> > > > > do wish you guys would make your minds up ...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sure we love. But sometimes the 'live and let live' has nothing to
do
> > with
> > > > love, only laziness.
> > >
> > > So, what do *you* understand by "love thy neighbour", then?
> >
> > Pray for him and do good if you can and witness the truth to him. Don't
> envy
> > him or get in his way. Look after him if you can.
>
> Wrong.
You asked me what *I* understood, I answered, so how is that 'wrong'?
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > > Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper its
written
> > on,
> > > > > > > though the music is divine the song is not
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pure emotion showing.
> > > > > > Love is close to hate, so you are not far from loving God.
> > > > >
> > > > > Heh. Who are you to judge how close someone else is to their
Deity?
> > > > >
> > > > I'm not. I'm saying all this hate for God is very telling.
> > >
> > > She didn't say she hated *anything*, let alone God (however defined).
> > >
> >
> > But the emotional terms used give the game away.
>
> Don't be silly, this is Usenet ..
Precisely.
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him, she
would
> > have
> > > > > > > died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through with a
> > pregnancy
> > > > > > > shouldn't even take a moment to think about, especially when
you
> > > know
> > > > > > > the child and the baby will die.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You seem very dogmatic about that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are a number of things to think about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nevertheless, if an animal ovulates, it is capable in all cases
of
> > > > bearing
> > > > > > without death.
> > > > > > If you believe that humans descended by evolution from animals,
it
> > is
> > > > odd
> > > > > > that you believe a pregnant young female will die. That doesn't
> > happen
> > > > in
> > > > > > all the other species. Just a thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure you didn't *really* mean to say that no young pregnant
> > mammal
> > > > has
> > > > > ever died through hormonal development exceeding other forms of
> > physical
> > > > > growth, did you? You don't strike me as terminally stupid
(although
> I
> > > > > wouldn't let you loose looking after cats).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Would you stand around making sure cats didn't get pregnant until
they
> > > were
> > > > good and ready?
> > >
> > > If you keep domestic cats, that is a requirement, yes. Unless you
happen
> > to
> > > enjoy watching small creatures die in agony, which I don't,
personally.
> > >
> >
> > You must really think I'm wet behind the ears or something. Who does
that
> in
> > the wild??
>
> Then how do you know that every mammal who ovulates survives pregnancy and
> birth?
>
They were made that way, they can't help it.
> >
> >
> > > > Please. Animals start to ovulate when they are ready to give birth
and
> > not
> > > > before.
> > >
> > > Animals ovulate when their hormone balance is ready. Depending on
> > heredity,
> > > nutrition and numerous other factors, ovulation does *not* mean they
are
> > > also capable of pregnancy and birth.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It's good to note a lot of non-belief in evolution in this here arw
> > group.
> > >
> > > Heh. How do you figure that out?
> >
> > People seem to think that humans are very different from animals.
> >
> > That's true, we are.
> >
> > precisely because we did not evolve from them.
>
> *grin* So, you're not animal. Are you a plant, a fungus, or what?
I am a human, a triune creature made in the image of God, with body, soul
and spirit.
Bruised and broken by the fall, but included by faith in the covenant with
God.
> > > > > > > I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out of a
lying,
> > > power
> > > > > > > mad church and found their own spiritual path, that some of
them
> > > > follow
> > > > > > > a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly don't belong
> to
> > > any
> > > > > > > church you belong to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do you know what I belong to?
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you going to tell us, or is it a trade secret?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > No secret. I belong I N C H R I S T.
> > > >
> > > > By faith in his blood spilt on calvary, and not by my own deserving,
> > which
> > > > is non-existant, me being by nature a worse rotter than the rest of
> the
> > > > rotters on here put together.
> > >
> > > Well, I doubt that, to be honest ... but why do you choose to be in a
> > faith
> > > which demeans you in that way?
> > >
> > > Jani
> > >
> >
> > It stands to reason that this demeaning, as you call it, is the only way
> to
> > be cleansed.
>
> It doesn't stand to reason at all, but ....
> >
> > Every other religion has people cleansing themselves.
>
> Yes, that is not a matter of belief systems per se, it's practical as
well.
> You don't paint over old wallpaper, you don't put another layer of make-up
> over the first (that's not a girlie thing, by the way, that's greasepaint)
> >
> > But only ours has christ doing all, with ourselves as incapable of
adding
> an
> > ything.
> >
> > This is the offense of the cross.
>
> So, what stops you all from killing yourselves? If it's all done, all
> sorted, and you're all inferior, what on earth is the damn point?
> >
> > And I didn't choose the religion. The religion, if you like, chose me.
>
> And it told you that you were incapable of adding anything to anything. Do
> you see something rather nasty and vicious there?
>
> Jani
>
>
No, I see Someone who paid my debt for me.
And I am all gratitude.
Uncle Davey
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