"Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
news:bo9amm$cpl$1@news.onet.pl...
>
> news:3rVpb.347$VH7.3258432@news-text.cableinet.net...
> >
> > "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> > news:bo9562$mcq$1@news.onet.pl...
> > >
> > > news:h9Upb.212$S07.2237687@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> > > > news:bo8tu2$ov8$1@news.onet.pl...
> > > > >
> > > > > Uzytkownik "Shez" <shez@oldcity.f2s.com> napisal w wiadomosci
> > > > > news:T5qoDhAvLUp$Ews1@oldcity.f2s.com...
> > > >
> > > > (picking a couple of bits here and there ..)
> > > >
> > > > > > I have been hearing that for the last sixty years, its the same
> > > > > > complaint and it never changes, This generation is no better or
> > worse
> > > > > > than the one before it. You want unchanging order. That would be
> the
> > > end
> > > > > > of the world, life has to change, chaos is built in, without
> change
> > > > > > their is no life.
> > > > >
> > > > > This generation no worse, eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't remember one in ten kids in London shooting up or taking
> crack
> > > in
> > > > > the Blitz.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is that blindfold of yours, like, a fashion accessory?
> > > >
> > > > Consider that same generation of young people, but over in Germany.
> Was
> > > the
> > > > genocidal fanaticism of the Hitler Youth so much better than
> disaffected
> > > > kids today taking advantage of a pre-existing drug culture?
> >
> > >
> > > They were sinners then, and they are sinners now, but we beat the
nazis
> > and
> > > are losing the war on drugs.
> >
> > That wasn't exactly the point. You were talking about better-or-worse
> > teenagers in each generation. Out of interest, though, since you support
> the
> > Church militant, how do you propose to deal with those of other faiths,
if
> > not in the way that the Nazis did?
> >
>
> Nobody is threatening to take kids off to the concentration camp if they
> don't comply with the ecstacy craze at discos.
If you support the Church militant, then you can't be in favour of freedom
of religion ..
>
> I personally believe in a free market of religious debate, and the truth
> will out.
And what do you propose to do, while your particular truth isn't "outing"?
You seem to be very sure that Christ is a sword, not a market commodity ..
> > > > > > Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem were
> innocent
> > > > > > people were killed in the name of superstition.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That wasn't the policy decision of a Church, that was the
cowardice,
> > > > > stupidity and panic of a local bunch of rednecks.
> > > >
> > > > IIRC, all legal and social policy in the Puritan settlements was
> > > established
> > > > *by christians* and strictly derived from christian religious
values.
> > The
> > > > Salem trials weren't run by atheists.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is true that in a Christian society we would probably criminalise
> > > witchcraft, but that does not mean that we would go about it in an
> > unfeeling
> > > way.
> >
> > Again, that wasn't the issue. Your "local bunch of rednecks" were
staunch
> > and extremely devout christians, who had gone through considerable
> privation
> > and hardship to establish a strictly christian social order. It's hardly
> > accurate to say that was not directly derived from the protestant
church.
>
>
> We are talking about the seventeenth century and most of that lot still
had
> the escape from the viciousness of catholicism and the inquisition still
in
> their heads as fairly recent history.
The Puritan emigrants were escaping from both catholics and protestants,
weren't they? They left not because there was too much freedom of religion,
but because there was too little.
I see no fairness in applying
> universal standards to them. The protestant faiths have not produced
Salems
> since.
You were applying universal standards about catholicism, and Shez called you
on it. Read upthread. And certainly there is the same level of stringency in
protestantism.
> > > We like them, but not their views.
> >
> > So, you tell your social acquaintances that they're the antichrist? You
> must
> > have some wonderful parties :)
> >
>
> They are not. Roman Catholicism and the Papacy had that role until their
> power base was broken.
You don't seem to know much about christian history. Are you interested in
christianity from a political point of view, or in terms of your own
spiritual development?
> > > > That implies that all christians, whether outwardly evangelical or
> not,
> > > have
> > > > a hidden evangelical agenda .. which in turn implies that they see
all
> > > their
> > > > non-christian friends as potential converts first, and friends
second.
> I
> > > > think that's a pretty offensive way of looking at it, actually,
don't
> > you?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I believe if you have a friend, believe they are going to hell, yet do
> > > nothing about it, then your friendship's not worth a great deal.
> >
> > Explaining your views and your beliefs is quite sufficient. Friendship
> does
> > not equal indoctrination, unless you deliberately choose as friends
those
> > who have no mind of their own. Don't you welcome discussion, and debate,
> and
> > insight? Most people who are secure in themselves and/ or their deity,
do,
> > in my experience ..
>
> Well, that's probably what those Christians do that Shez knows personally.
>
> But be under no illusions. We want you to be saved.
Why?
>
> >
> > > > > I believe, personally, that you are going to hell. I wish I didn't
> > > believe
> > > > > that such a horrible destiny is currently in store for you if you
do
> > not
> > > > > turn to Christ, but I do, so there we are. In that case, if I
don't
> > give
> > > > you
> > > > > the gospel, that Christ died so that you can go to heaven if you
> only
> > > call
> > > > > on Him and trust in Him, am I being loving to you or not?
> > > >
> > > > But you've fulfilled whatever responsibilities you feel you have, by
> > > saying
> > > > what you've just said. That done, leave it to the free will of
others
> to
> > > > decide.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Free will is vastly overrated.
> >
> > Heh. Care to elaborate?
> >
>
> As in why do you even suppose you have it?
Yes, that would do. I'm quite fond of Calvin. Please continue ..
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is killfiled,
> most
> > of
> > > > > > us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to be
Christians
> > we
> > > > > > could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of
> Christianity
> > > than
> > > > > > you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't need your
> brand
> > of
> > > > > > lies and hate.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think if you didn't think deep down inside, that you do need it,
> you
> > > > would
> > > > > not need to use such emotive terms as 'your brand of lies and
hate'.
> > > > >
> > > > > You would just say you don't fancy it, because you've already got
a
> > > > > religion.
> > > >
> > > > That would be a reasonable response, in a society where all
religions
> > were
> > > > treated equally. Some of us are rather tired of having christianity
> > pushed
> > > > in our faces at every turn.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You know how we feel, then, having paganism pushed in ours.
> >
> > Who has done that? *You* crossposted over here, remember?
> >
>
> I was talking about life and the media. Here we are having an equal
> discussion, which is quite a different matter.
I think you've lost track of why you started this in the first place ..
>
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live and let
> live.
> > > > > > And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud you are of
> it,
> > > > > > Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the peace, and
> live
> > > and
> > > > > > let live.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Christ is all about battle.
> > > > > Christ is not about living and letting live.
> > > >
> > > > So, those christians who cite "love thy neighbour" and so on, are
> liars?
> > I
> > > > do wish you guys would make your minds up ...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sure we love. But sometimes the 'live and let live' has nothing to do
> with
> > > love, only laziness.
> >
> > So, what do *you* understand by "love thy neighbour", then?
>
> Pray for him and do good if you can and witness the truth to him. Don't
envy
> him or get in his way. Look after him if you can.
Wrong.
>
> >
> >
> > > > > > Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper its written
> on,
> > > > > > though the music is divine the song is not
> > > > >
> > > > > Pure emotion showing.
> > > > > Love is close to hate, so you are not far from loving God.
> > > >
> > > > Heh. Who are you to judge how close someone else is to their Deity?
> > > >
> > > I'm not. I'm saying all this hate for God is very telling.
> >
> > She didn't say she hated *anything*, let alone God (however defined).
> >
>
> But the emotional terms used give the game away.
Don't be silly, this is Usenet ..
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him, she would
> have
> > > > > > died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through with a
> pregnancy
> > > > > > shouldn't even take a moment to think about, especially when you
> > know
> > > > > > the child and the baby will die.
> > > > >
> > > > > You seem very dogmatic about that.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a number of things to think about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nevertheless, if an animal ovulates, it is capable in all cases of
> > > bearing
> > > > > without death.
> > > > > If you believe that humans descended by evolution from animals, it
> is
> > > odd
> > > > > that you believe a pregnant young female will die. That doesn't
> happen
> > > in
> > > > > all the other species. Just a thought.
> > > >
> > > > I am sure you didn't *really* mean to say that no young pregnant
> mammal
> > > has
> > > > ever died through hormonal development exceeding other forms of
> physical
> > > > growth, did you? You don't strike me as terminally stupid (although
I
> > > > wouldn't let you loose looking after cats).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Would you stand around making sure cats didn't get pregnant until they
> > were
> > > good and ready?
> >
> > If you keep domestic cats, that is a requirement, yes. Unless you happen
> to
> > enjoy watching small creatures die in agony, which I don't, personally.
> >
>
> You must really think I'm wet behind the ears or something. Who does that
in
> the wild??
Then how do you know that every mammal who ovulates survives pregnancy and
birth?
>
>
> > > Please. Animals start to ovulate when they are ready to give birth and
> not
> > > before.
> >
> > Animals ovulate when their hormone balance is ready. Depending on
> heredity,
> > nutrition and numerous other factors, ovulation does *not* mean they are
> > also capable of pregnancy and birth.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > It's good to note a lot of non-belief in evolution in this here arw
> group.
> >
> > Heh. How do you figure that out?
>
> People seem to think that humans are very different from animals.
>
> That's true, we are.
>
> precisely because we did not evolve from them.
*grin* So, you're not animal. Are you a plant, a fungus, or what?
>
> >
> > >
> > > > > > I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out of a lying,
> > power
> > > > > > mad church and found their own spiritual path, that some of them
> > > follow
> > > > > > a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly don't belong
to
> > any
> > > > > > church you belong to.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you know what I belong to?
> > > >
> > > > Are you going to tell us, or is it a trade secret?
> > > >
> > >
> > > No secret. I belong I N C H R I S T.
> > >
> > > By faith in his blood spilt on calvary, and not by my own deserving,
> which
> > > is non-existant, me being by nature a worse rotter than the rest of
the
> > > rotters on here put together.
> >
> > Well, I doubt that, to be honest ... but why do you choose to be in a
> faith
> > which demeans you in that way?
> >
> > Jani
> >
>
> It stands to reason that this demeaning, as you call it, is the only way
to
> be cleansed.
It doesn't stand to reason at all, but ....
>
> Every other religion has people cleansing themselves.
Yes, that is not a matter of belief systems per se, it's practical as well.
You don't paint over old wallpaper, you don't put another layer of make-up
over the first (that's not a girlie thing, by the way, that's greasepaint)
>
> But only ours has christ doing all, with ourselves as incapable of adding
an
> ything.
>
> This is the offense of the cross.
So, what stops you all from killing yourselves? If it's all done, all
sorted, and you're all inferior, what on earth is the damn point?
>
> And I didn't choose the religion. The religion, if you like, chose me.
And it told you that you were incapable of adding anything to anything. Do
you see something rather nasty and vicious there?
Jani
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