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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Hello Wiccans
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:51:11 +0100
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>
> "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> news:bo9562$mcq$1@news.onet.pl...
> >
> > news:h9Upb.212$S07.2237687@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > >
> > > "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> > > news:bo8tu2$ov8$1@news.onet.pl...
> > > >
> > > > Uzytkownik "Shez" <shez@oldcity.f2s.com> napisal w wiadomosci
> > > > news:T5qoDhAvLUp$Ews1@oldcity.f2s.com...
> > >
> > > (picking a couple of bits here and there ..)
> > >
> > > > > I have been hearing that for the last sixty years, its the same
> > > > > complaint and it never changes, This generation is no better or
> worse
> > > > > than the one before it. You want unchanging order. That would be
the
> > end
> > > > > of the world, life has to change, chaos is built in, without
change
> > > > > their is no life.
> > > >
> > > > This generation no worse, eh?
> > > >
> > > > I don't remember one in ten kids in London shooting up or taking
crack
> > in
> > > > the Blitz.
> > > >
> > > > Is that blindfold of yours, like, a fashion accessory?
> > >
> > > Consider that same generation of young people, but over in Germany.
Was
> > the
> > > genocidal fanaticism of the Hitler Youth so much better than
disaffected
> > > kids today taking advantage of a pre-existing drug culture?
>
> >
> > They were sinners then, and they are sinners now, but we beat the nazis
> and
> > are losing the war on drugs.
>
> That wasn't exactly the point. You were talking about better-or-worse
> teenagers in each generation. Out of interest, though, since you support
the
> Church militant, how do you propose to deal with those of other faiths, if
> not in the way that the Nazis did?
>
Nobody is threatening to take kids off to the concentration camp if they
don't comply with the ecstacy craze at discos.
I personally believe in a free market of religious debate, and the truth
will out.
> >
> > > > > Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem were
innocent
> > > > > people were killed in the name of superstition.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > That wasn't the policy decision of a Church, that was the cowardice,
> > > > stupidity and panic of a local bunch of rednecks.
> > >
> > > IIRC, all legal and social policy in the Puritan settlements was
> > established
> > > *by christians* and strictly derived from christian religious values.
> The
> > > Salem trials weren't run by atheists.
> > >
> >
> > It is true that in a Christian society we would probably criminalise
> > witchcraft, but that does not mean that we would go about it in an
> unfeeling
> > way.
>
> Again, that wasn't the issue. Your "local bunch of rednecks" were staunch
> and extremely devout christians, who had gone through considerable
privation
> and hardship to establish a strictly christian social order. It's hardly
> accurate to say that was not directly derived from the protestant church.
We are talking about the seventeenth century and most of that lot still had
the escape from the viciousness of catholicism and the inquisition still in
their heads as fairly recent history. I see no fairness in applying
universal standards to them. The protestant faiths have not produced Salems
since.
>
> > > > > I don't believe in your Christ, for me everything is part of God,
> and
> > > > > Jesus was simply a man with a message, its a pity that you and
> people
> > > > > like you have taken that message and reduced it to hatred and
evil.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Why am I being accused by you of hatred and evil?
> > > >
> > > > Did I upset you in some way?
> > >
> > > I certainly can't speak for Shez, but I personally find your
intolerance
> > of
> > > other christian paths, let alone non-christian ones, to demonstrate
> rather
> > > more than mild dislike ...
> > >
> >
> > We like them, but not their views.
>
> So, you tell your social acquaintances that they're the antichrist? You
must
> have some wonderful parties :)
>
They are not. Roman Catholicism and the Papacy had that role until their
power base was broken.
> >
> > >
> > > > > No they understand and accept that we follow our own spiritual
path,
> > > > > they don't need to preach, If you truly believe in something, then
> you
> > > > > don't have to preach about it, you live it every day of your life.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If they believe you're going to hell, then either they don't care
that
> > you
> > > > go there or they will want to stop you going there by giving you the
> > > gospel.
> > > > They may be giving it to you gently, or just cultivating the
> friendship
> > so
> > > > that you they are around when you need them. But you might ask them
> > > whether
> > > > they believe you are going to hell or not.
> > >
> > > That implies that all christians, whether outwardly evangelical or
not,
> > have
> > > a hidden evangelical agenda .. which in turn implies that they see all
> > their
> > > non-christian friends as potential converts first, and friends second.
I
> > > think that's a pretty offensive way of looking at it, actually, don't
> you?
> > >
> >
> > I believe if you have a friend, believe they are going to hell, yet do
> > nothing about it, then your friendship's not worth a great deal.
>
> Explaining your views and your beliefs is quite sufficient. Friendship
does
> not equal indoctrination, unless you deliberately choose as friends those
> who have no mind of their own. Don't you welcome discussion, and debate,
and
> insight? Most people who are secure in themselves and/ or their deity, do,
> in my experience ..
Well, that's probably what those Christians do that Shez knows personally.
But be under no illusions. We want you to be saved.
>
> > > > I believe, personally, that you are going to hell. I wish I didn't
> > believe
> > > > that such a horrible destiny is currently in store for you if you do
> not
> > > > turn to Christ, but I do, so there we are. In that case, if I don't
> give
> > > you
> > > > the gospel, that Christ died so that you can go to heaven if you
only
> > call
> > > > on Him and trust in Him, am I being loving to you or not?
> > >
> > > But you've fulfilled whatever responsibilities you feel you have, by
> > saying
> > > what you've just said. That done, leave it to the free will of others
to
> > > decide.
> > >
> >
> > Free will is vastly overrated.
>
> Heh. Care to elaborate?
>
As in why do you even suppose you have it?
> >
> > > > > Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is killfiled,
most
> of
> > > > > us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to be Christians
> we
> > > > > could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of
Christianity
> > than
> > > > > you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't need your
brand
> of
> > > > > lies and hate.
> > > >
> > > > I think if you didn't think deep down inside, that you do need it,
you
> > > would
> > > > not need to use such emotive terms as 'your brand of lies and hate'.
> > > >
> > > > You would just say you don't fancy it, because you've already got a
> > > > religion.
> > >
> > > That would be a reasonable response, in a society where all religions
> were
> > > treated equally. Some of us are rather tired of having christianity
> pushed
> > > in our faces at every turn.
> > >
> >
> > You know how we feel, then, having paganism pushed in ours.
>
> Who has done that? *You* crossposted over here, remember?
>
I was talking about life and the media. Here we are having an equal
discussion, which is quite a different matter.
> >
> > >
> > > > > Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live and let
live.
> > > > > And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud you are of
it,
> > > > > Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the peace, and
live
> > and
> > > > > let live.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Christ is all about battle.
> > > > Christ is not about living and letting live.
> > >
> > > So, those christians who cite "love thy neighbour" and so on, are
liars?
> I
> > > do wish you guys would make your minds up ...
> > >
> >
> > Sure we love. But sometimes the 'live and let live' has nothing to do
with
> > love, only laziness.
>
> So, what do *you* understand by "love thy neighbour", then?
Pray for him and do good if you can and witness the truth to him. Don't envy
him or get in his way. Look after him if you can.
>
>
> > > > > Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper its written
on,
> > > > > though the music is divine the song is not
> > > >
> > > > Pure emotion showing.
> > > > Love is close to hate, so you are not far from loving God.
> > >
> > > Heh. Who are you to judge how close someone else is to their Deity?
> > >
> > I'm not. I'm saying all this hate for God is very telling.
>
> She didn't say she hated *anything*, let alone God (however defined).
>
But the emotional terms used give the game away.
>
> > >
> > > > > Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him, she would
have
> > > > > died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through with a
pregnancy
> > > > > shouldn't even take a moment to think about, especially when you
> know
> > > > > the child and the baby will die.
> > > >
> > > > You seem very dogmatic about that.
> > > >
> > > > There are a number of things to think about.
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, if an animal ovulates, it is capable in all cases of
> > bearing
> > > > without death.
> > > > If you believe that humans descended by evolution from animals, it
is
> > odd
> > > > that you believe a pregnant young female will die. That doesn't
happen
> > in
> > > > all the other species. Just a thought.
> > >
> > > I am sure you didn't *really* mean to say that no young pregnant
mammal
> > has
> > > ever died through hormonal development exceeding other forms of
physical
> > > growth, did you? You don't strike me as terminally stupid (although I
> > > wouldn't let you loose looking after cats).
> > >
> >
> > Would you stand around making sure cats didn't get pregnant until they
> were
> > good and ready?
>
> If you keep domestic cats, that is a requirement, yes. Unless you happen
to
> enjoy watching small creatures die in agony, which I don't, personally.
>
You must really think I'm wet behind the ears or something. Who does that in
the wild??
> > Please. Animals start to ovulate when they are ready to give birth and
not
> > before.
>
> Animals ovulate when their hormone balance is ready. Depending on
heredity,
> nutrition and numerous other factors, ovulation does *not* mean they are
> also capable of pregnancy and birth.
>
>
> >
> > It's good to note a lot of non-belief in evolution in this here arw
group.
>
> Heh. How do you figure that out?
People seem to think that humans are very different from animals.
That's true, we are.
precisely because we did not evolve from them.
>
> >
> > > > > I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out of a lying,
> power
> > > > > mad church and found their own spiritual path, that some of them
> > follow
> > > > > a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly don't belong to
> any
> > > > > church you belong to.
> > > >
> > > > How do you know what I belong to?
> > >
> > > Are you going to tell us, or is it a trade secret?
> > >
> >
> > No secret. I belong I N C H R I S T.
> >
> > By faith in his blood spilt on calvary, and not by my own deserving,
which
> > is non-existant, me being by nature a worse rotter than the rest of the
> > rotters on here put together.
>
> Well, I doubt that, to be honest ... but why do you choose to be in a
faith
> which demeans you in that way?
>
> Jani
>
It stands to reason that this demeaning, as you call it, is the only way to
be cleansed.
Every other religion has people cleansing themselves.
But only ours has christ doing all, with ourselves as incapable of adding an
ything.
This is the offense of the cross.
And I didn't choose the religion. The religion, if you like, chose me.
Uncle Davey
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