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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Hello Wiccans
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:11:10 +0100
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Uzytkownik "Shez" <shez@oldcity.f2s.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:T5qoDhAvLUp$Ews1@oldcity.f2s.com...
> In article <bo37b9$tf$1@news.onet.pl>, Piorokrat <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
> writes
> >
> >Uzytkownik "Shez" <shez@oldcity.f2s.com> napisal w wiadomosci
> >news:0uRR2vADvDp$EwYu@oldcity.f2s.com...
> >> In article <bo1cck$9lf$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>, Uncle Davey
> >> <noway@jose.com> writes
> >> >
> >> >news:bo18n3$16fo1v$1@ID-140581.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> >> "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> trolled:
> >> >> > "t_naismith" wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > <cross-post from "free.christians" NG - a misnomer or plea for
> >> >> > assistance?>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Here's a better deal, Jaz; if you can admit to the rampant
cultural
> >> >> > > thieveries of xtianity from prior cultures which took place over
> >> >> > > thousands of years, (cf. history), and do everything you can to
> >> >> > > try to redress that issue, I personally will take your request
> >under
> >> >> > > advisement. Until then, kill-file me or bugger off.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Could you be a little more specific about what you believe we have
> >taken
> >> >> > from other cultures?
> >> >> >
> >> >> What, you don't know your own religion's history? The laundry list
of
> >> >> examples would be considerably shorter were it to include that which
> >> >> was _not_ borrowed/swiped/nicked/plagiarized/co-opted from cultures
> >> >> which predated it. So, that's your mission, missionary; find some
> >tenet
> >> >> that was not stolen by xtianity ... there has to be at least one,
nyet?
> >> >>
> >> >> T.N.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I can tell you this, that it was the Christian church that gave
literacy
> >to
> >> >many many languages, and then the secular used what we gave for their
own
> >> >purposes.
> >>
> >> The Christian church fought literacy, and kept it within the church, it
> >> didn't want people reading the bible and questioning what the priests
> >> decreed.
> >
> >No, that was the Antichrist church that did that.
> >Latines, Romanoi, 666, and all that.
>
> Rubbish
Only the Catholic church did what you refer to.
Fact.
> >
> >> >
> >> >It was the Christian church that built many fine buildings used today
for
> >> >exclusively pagan purposes.
> >>
> >> Pagans built many fine buildings, some of which are still in use today,
> >> I watched Opera the other night staged at the Coliseum in Rome.
> >
> >Built on slave labour, which christians such as Shaftesbury fought to
end.
> >
> The legions built the coliseum,
okay, the legions of slaves.
They also fought there, for entertainment.
This is the pagan culture you are trying to defend.
> >> >
> >> >It was Christian thought that developed the legal systems that underly
> >> >modern democracies and free market countries.
> >>
> >> Rubbish it was the Greeks and Romans who gave us the legal system, and
> >> the Greeks who gave us democracy.
> >
> >I thought you lived in America? That does not use Roman law.
> >Democracy of the Greeks would have been long forgotten had monks not kept
> >learning alive through the dark ages. And modern democracy was
re-instated
> >by protestants, and has no direct line to the Greek one anyway.
>
> Check headings, I am from Britain, and since when has America invented
> democracy
Britain doesn't apply Roman law either. Not unless you are in Scotland,
which applies certain parts of it.
> Greeks invented democracy... its supposed to be one man one vote, but
> from what I saw of the last American elections especially in Florida, if
> you were black, female or didn't vote for bush, you didn't get a vote.
> Monks did not keep learning alive during the dark ages, The church
> caused the dark ages, The people who kept learning alive were Scholars
> and Alchemists, artists and writers, many of whom were abused by and
> even killed by the Christian church.
>
If democracy means one man one vote then the Greeks certainly did not invent
it.
> >
> >
> >> >
> >> >It was the Reformation that gave rise to the Industrial Revolution
> >>
> >> The Industrial revolution would probably have happened hundreds of
years
> >> earlier if the church had not tried to stop anything that might
remotely
> >> threaten their power base,
> >
> >I am not defending the Antichrist church here, but the Church.
>
> Christianity for the most part was the catholic church, the Protestant
> church is a late comer and calling Catholics the anti Christ is childish
> and pathetic, you all believe in the same god, If you cant even get on
> when you believe the same thing, what chance has this world got.
That's what the Antichrist wanted to achieve, that people would think that.
That's why he hijacked the church.
> >
> >> >
> >> >It was Christians who were the leading scientists through the main
> >centuries
> >> >of progress.
> >>
> >> Don't you mean that they killed, or imprisoned the scientists, who
spoke
> >> against the churches world views, If the church had its way, we would
> >> still be on a flat earth with the sun revolving around us , and us at
> >> the very centre of the universe,
> >
> >This was never a point of faith with Christians.
>
> Of course it was, Humanity was at the centre of the universe, the one
> and only sapient species that your god had supposedly created.
We know very well that God has created other sapient kinds in other
dispensations, and many are mentioned explicitly in Scripture.
Nevertheless it is patently obvious that we are alone as far as this
particular creation is concerned.
If you think not, then please show me the evidence of alien intelligences
visiting us. If things were as the atheist scientists think, then I am
surprised we have not been visited by now.
If my clients didn't get visited by the Tax Office in thousands of years I
would stop thinking that tax officers exist.
> >Galileo had no beef with the reformers.
> >
> >The same people waving instruments of torture in his face were kicking
soil
> >into the throats of our protestant brethren as they sang psalms while
being
> >buried alive by the Antichrist inquisition.
>
> Don't recruit Galileo into your ranks, he doesn't belong their, he was a
> scientist not a fool.
What about Newton? Would you like to pluck him from our number as well?
> >> >
> >> >It was for, admittedly mislead, Christian purposes that the basis of
> >modern
> >> >art, literature and music in all European and American culture was
> >founded,
> >> >and then hijacked by unbelievers.
> >>
> >> Art literature and culture was strong and very well established long
> >> before Christianity, in fact Christianity still tries to stop art and
> >> literature from being published if it disapproves of it, how many films
> >> have the church suggested that their parishioners not view, how many
> >> books that they should not read, how many have stood outside libraries
> >> demanding that their and only their ideas of what is literature be on
> >> the book lists.
> >
> >I think they only want a return to common decency in a generation that
has
> >lost touch with it.
>
> I have been hearing that for the last sixty years, its the same
> complaint and it never changes, This generation is no better or worse
> than the one before it. You want unchanging order. That would be the end
> of the world, life has to change, chaos is built in, without change
> their is no life.
This generation no worse, eh?
I don't remember one in ten kids in London shooting up or taking crack in
the Blitz.
Is that blindfold of yours, like, a fashion accessory?
> >>
> >> >
> >> >In short, we don't need to have any complexes at all about the balance
> >sheet
> >> >of our culture.
> >>
> >> What complexes, your ideas on history are based on fantasy, your idea
of
> >> the church is based on fabrication, the church gave us the dark ages,
> >> the inquisition,
> >> It tried to stop the use of printing presses because it would mean
> >> common people would have access to the written word..
> >
> >You are referring to the Roman Catholics at the time of their hijacking
and
> >total political control by Satan.
>
> I am referring to all Christians.
How very broad brush of you.
Even all Roman Catholics were not guilty of the excesses that its high
echelons did. And at the level of the individual believer, there were monks
who kept culture alive. Look at Fulda. Look at Sankt Gallen. Look at
Lindisfarne.
> >This has nothing to do with Protestant faith, other that the fact that he
> >tries to get hold of us as well, and sometimes succeeds, so that we get
> >cases like the Anglican church, worse than Rome ever was, yet mincing
around
> >under the name of protestant which it no longer deserves.
>
> Their is no such thing as the devil, and if you want to find God then
> trying looking in the one place you have obviously never looked, into
> your own mind and your own heart,
> You wont find the God you use to persecute and destroy others, that god
> doesn't exist.
> We are all given free will to choose what spiritual path we follow, you
> and your Ilk would take that freedom away and force people into the
> mould you want to fit them into.
>
It's the devil that wants you to believe he doesn't exist.
> >
> >
> >> It made anyone who talked against it outlaws, and heretics, even some
of
> >> the leading minds in Europe.
> >> It tried to stop evolution being taught in schools and to this day
still
> >> insists that creationism is a valid scientific viewpoint, even though
> >> any one with an ounce of sense knows its fairy stories.
> >>
> >>
> >> Some of the leaders of the church were poisoner's, murderers, and some
> >> of the most evil people in History, remember the Borgia's.
> >> Even today the church tries to stop ordinary people from accessing
> >> education, family planning and even health care, because if it keeps
> >> people poor uneducated and steeped in superstition it might be able to
> >> keep its power base.
> >> The church stopped being about Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, its about
> >> power, money, and blackmail.
> >>
> >
> >You continually refer to catholicism, and your points would be very
valid,
> >and I could add even more on top, only you seem to think this is the
> >Christian church, whereas this was the Antichrist.
>
> Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem were innocent
> people were killed in the name of superstition.
That wasn't the policy decision of a Church, that was the cowardice,
stupidity and panic of a local bunch of rednecks.
> >If you don't like the Antichrist, then I say, hallelujah. There's every
hope
> >you will like the real Christ.
>
> I don't believe in your Christ, for me everything is part of God, and
> Jesus was simply a man with a message, its a pity that you and people
> like you have taken that message and reduced it to hatred and evil.
Why am I being accused by you of hatred and evil?
Did I upset you in some way?
> >
> >> The very few real Christians I have met, live in the way they think
that
> >> Jesus Christ would have lived, and give themselves and their time
> >> without preaching, or expecting any return, they don't ask for money,
> >> power or fame.
> >
> >I expect they probably are preaching, but in a way that is very subtle,
so
> >that you don't take exception to it. If they are christians they
naturally
> >want you to know and share their blessings.
>
> No they understand and accept that we follow our own spiritual path,
> they don't need to preach, If you truly believe in something, then you
> don't have to preach about it, you live it every day of your life.
If they believe you're going to hell, then either they don't care that you
go there or they will want to stop you going there by giving you the gospel.
They may be giving it to you gently, or just cultivating the friendship so
that you they are around when you need them. But you might ask them whether
they believe you are going to hell or not.
I believe, personally, that you are going to hell. I wish I didn't believe
that such a horrible destiny is currently in store for you if you do not
turn to Christ, but I do, so there we are. In that case, if I don't give you
the gospel, that Christ died so that you can go to heaven if you only call
on Him and trust in Him, am I being loving to you or not?
> >
> >I like to do that as well, for people around me, but Usenet is not much
of a
> >place for that style of evangelism. Here I find the best way forward is
to
> >tell it like it is. Straight and blunt. That's the way this medium seems
to
> >work.
>
> Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is killfiled, most of
> us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to be Christians we
> could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of Christianity than
> you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't need your brand of
> lies and hate.
I think if you didn't think deep down inside, that you do need it, you would
not need to use such emotive terms as 'your brand of lies and hate'.
You would just say you don't fancy it, because you've already got a
religion.
> >
> >
> >> Those I respect, the rest of you can go back to your church and
convince
> >> yourself that you and only you made the world what it is today...
> >
> >I didn't say we only, only that we have a positive cultural balance
sheet.
> >What protestantism has borrowed from other cultures has made us richer
> >without making them poorer.
>
> You borrowed the hate, the killing, the abuse, the desire to remake
> everyone in your own image.
> Your not the first fundamentalist Christian on here not even the
> hundredth, we even have ex Christian fundamentalists who are now pagans,
> Seems they couldn't take the "lie for Christ " message any more, they
> wanted more truth and went out to find it for themselves,
> if you have to lie and invent to sell your religion then their is
> something seriously wrong with your religion.
Well, I haven't lied. I have told you straight that some people have done
wrong in the name of Christianity.
> >
> >Example; the famous Hymn of Luther, called colloquially the Battle Hymn
of
> >the Reformation, which goes "Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott" or in
English
> >"A safe stronghold our God is still" or "A mighty fortress is our God"
> >depending on whose translation is being sung, uses a melody which goes
under
> >the name 'Ein' feste Burg'. Now Luther is accredited with the melody and
> >Bach with buffing up some cool riffs for it about a century later, but
> >originally the hymn was a drinking song from the inns and kneipen of the
> >Saxony region. We took it, we sing it, we turned it into a battle hymn,
but
> >we didn't make the original alcoholics any poorer, they could carry on
> >singing it to vulgar words if they wanted to.
>
> Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live and let live.
> And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud you are of it,
> Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the peace, and live and
> let live.
Christ is all about battle.
Christ is not about living and letting live.
>
> Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper its written on,
> though the music is divine the song is not
Pure emotion showing.
Love is close to hate, so you are not far from loving God.
>
> >> You might even be right, and what a sad thing that is to admit, the
rule
> >> of money, and power, riding roughshod over hunger, poverty and disease.
> >> A church that is keeping people in poverty for its own ends, a church
> >> that lies and says condoms let aids through, so that its power is not
> >> broken.
> >
> >I don't see evangelicals making issues over condoms.
>
> Don't you, you should read your own press sometimes.
I read the Bible, and I don't see condom related matters there.
> >
> >>A church that says an eight year old girl who has been raped,
> >> must have her baby, even though it would kill her and the child.
> >
> >Difficult one. I really don't know what the answer is in that case,
except
> >that I would have the rapist in the electric chair.
>
> Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him, she would have
> died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through with a pregnancy
> shouldn't even take a moment to think about, especially when you know
> the child and the baby will die.
You seem very dogmatic about that.
There are a number of things to think about.
Nevertheless, if an animal ovulates, it is capable in all cases of bearing
without death.
If you believe that humans descended by evolution from animals, it is odd
that you believe a pregnant young female will die. That doesn't happen in
all the other species. Just a thought.
> Fortunately her parents had more sense than the church and arranged an
> abortion for her, as they said if the church lets their daughter die
> because of dogma, then its not a church they want to belong to.
I hope they join one that doesn't believe in evolution, anyway, as they
clearly don't.
> >
> >> I don't see anything for the church to be proud of, its dragged its
> >> heels at every opportunity, its put barriers in the way of people who
> >> want to help the poor and the hungry. Its lied about condoms even when
> >> the World health authority specifically state, that condoms used
> >> properly will help stop the spread of aids.
> >
> >You are talking Rome again.
>
> No I am not just talking Rome, all Christianity is tarred with the same
> brush.
That's the kind of attititude that caused the Salem witchhunts.
> >>
> >> Its killed those it cant stop or gag, its murdered in the name of Jesus
> >> Christ, and I don't think that he would have approved of that, and its
> >> forced conversions on native peoples against their will, taking their
> >> children away from them and forcing them into church schools.
> >>
> >
> >Rome rome, on the range, where the pope and the cardinals play
> >where always is heard a discouraging word, if you want read bibles or
pray.
> >
> >> Next time you want to crow about the church think before you
speak..your
> >> own mouth condemns you.
> >
> >I hope the people to whom your concerns are rightly addressed found that
> >convicting.
> >
> >Don't let the fact of an overwhelming majority of false Christians stop
you
> >coming to Christ.
> >You said yourself you knew some really saved people. What a blessing that
> >is.
>
> I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out of a lying, power
> mad church and found their own spiritual path, that some of them follow
> a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly don't belong to any
> church you belong to.
How do you know what I belong to?
> I studied Christianity years ago, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't even
> make for a good story.
If it were invented it would be a much better story.
> I don't need your god in my life, I find your version of him, hateful,
> sick and crazy... why would I want a god like that in my life.
Because he, like, made it.
> All I say is find your own spiritual path, walk it, and find your own
> personal relationship with whatever you feel is god.
> No two paths are the same, we all have to find our own way in the end.
>
Cliches.
>
> Your not saved Davey, your sick, and you want to spread your sickness to
> everything and everyone else you know.
> Your a walking plague carrier.
Hallelujah.
> --
> Shez shez@oldcity.f2s.com
Best,
Uncle Davey
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