In article <bo37b9$tf$1@news.onet.pl>, Piorokrat <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
writes
>
>Uzytkownik "Shez" <shez@oldcity.f2s.com> napisal w wiadomosci
>news:0uRR2vADvDp$EwYu@oldcity.f2s.com...
>> In article <bo1cck$9lf$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>, Uncle Davey
>> <noway@jose.com> writes
>> >
>> >news:bo18n3$16fo1v$1@ID-140581.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> >> "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> trolled:
>> >> > "t_naismith" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > <cross-post from "free.christians" NG - a misnomer or plea for
>> >> > assistance?>
>> >> >
>> >> > > Here's a better deal, Jaz; if you can admit to the rampant cultural
>> >> > > thieveries of xtianity from prior cultures which took place over
>> >> > > thousands of years, (cf. history), and do everything you can to
>> >> > > try to redress that issue, I personally will take your request
>under
>> >> > > advisement. Until then, kill-file me or bugger off.
>> >> >
>> >> > Could you be a little more specific about what you believe we have
>taken
>> >> > from other cultures?
>> >> >
>> >> What, you don't know your own religion's history? The laundry list of
>> >> examples would be considerably shorter were it to include that which
>> >> was _not_ borrowed/swiped/nicked/plagiarized/co-opted from cultures
>> >> which predated it. So, that's your mission, missionary; find some
>tenet
>> >> that was not stolen by xtianity ... there has to be at least one, nyet?
>> >>
>> >> T.N.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I can tell you this, that it was the Christian church that gave literacy
>to
>> >many many languages, and then the secular used what we gave for their own
>> >purposes.
>>
>> The Christian church fought literacy, and kept it within the church, it
>> didn't want people reading the bible and questioning what the priests
>> decreed.
>
>No, that was the Antichrist church that did that.
>Latines, Romanoi, 666, and all that.
Rubbish
>
>> >
>> >It was the Christian church that built many fine buildings used today for
>> >exclusively pagan purposes.
>>
>> Pagans built many fine buildings, some of which are still in use today,
>> I watched Opera the other night staged at the Coliseum in Rome.
>
>Built on slave labour, which christians such as Shaftesbury fought to end.
>
The legions built the coliseum,
>> >
>> >It was Christian thought that developed the legal systems that underly
>> >modern democracies and free market countries.
>>
>> Rubbish it was the Greeks and Romans who gave us the legal system, and
>> the Greeks who gave us democracy.
>
>I thought you lived in America? That does not use Roman law.
>Democracy of the Greeks would have been long forgotten had monks not kept
>learning alive through the dark ages. And modern democracy was re-instated
>by protestants, and has no direct line to the Greek one anyway.
Check headings, I am from Britain, and since when has America invented
democracy
Greeks invented democracy... its supposed to be one man one vote, but
from what I saw of the last American elections especially in Florida, if
you were black, female or didn't vote for bush, you didn't get a vote.
Monks did not keep learning alive during the dark ages, The church
caused the dark ages, The people who kept learning alive were Scholars
and Alchemists, artists and writers, many of whom were abused by and
even killed by the Christian church.
>
>
>> >
>> >It was the Reformation that gave rise to the Industrial Revolution
>>
>> The Industrial revolution would probably have happened hundreds of years
>> earlier if the church had not tried to stop anything that might remotely
>> threaten their power base,
>
>I am not defending the Antichrist church here, but the Church.
Christianity for the most part was the catholic church, the Protestant
church is a late comer and calling Catholics the anti Christ is childish
and pathetic, you all believe in the same god, If you cant even get on
when you believe the same thing, what chance has this world got.
>
>> >
>> >It was Christians who were the leading scientists through the main
>centuries
>> >of progress.
>>
>> Don't you mean that they killed, or imprisoned the scientists, who spoke
>> against the churches world views, If the church had its way, we would
>> still be on a flat earth with the sun revolving around us , and us at
>> the very centre of the universe,
>
>This was never a point of faith with Christians.
Of course it was, Humanity was at the centre of the universe, the one
and only sapient species that your god had supposedly created.
>
>Galileo had no beef with the reformers.
>
>The same people waving instruments of torture in his face were kicking soil
>into the throats of our protestant brethren as they sang psalms while being
>buried alive by the Antichrist inquisition.
Don't recruit Galileo into your ranks, he doesn't belong their, he was a
scientist not a fool.
>
>> >
>> >It was for, admittedly mislead, Christian purposes that the basis of
>modern
>> >art, literature and music in all European and American culture was
>founded,
>> >and then hijacked by unbelievers.
>>
>> Art literature and culture was strong and very well established long
>> before Christianity, in fact Christianity still tries to stop art and
>> literature from being published if it disapproves of it, how many films
>> have the church suggested that their parishioners not view, how many
>> books that they should not read, how many have stood outside libraries
>> demanding that their and only their ideas of what is literature be on
>> the book lists.
>
>I think they only want a return to common decency in a generation that has
>lost touch with it.
I have been hearing that for the last sixty years, its the same
complaint and it never changes, This generation is no better or worse
than the one before it. You want unchanging order. That would be the end
of the world, life has to change, chaos is built in, without change
their is no life.
>
>>
>> >
>> >In short, we don't need to have any complexes at all about the balance
>sheet
>> >of our culture.
>>
>> What complexes, your ideas on history are based on fantasy, your idea of
>> the church is based on fabrication, the church gave us the dark ages,
>> the inquisition,
>> It tried to stop the use of printing presses because it would mean
>> common people would have access to the written word..
>
>You are referring to the Roman Catholics at the time of their hijacking and
>total political control by Satan.
I am referring to all Christians.
>
>This has nothing to do with Protestant faith, other that the fact that he
>tries to get hold of us as well, and sometimes succeeds, so that we get
>cases like the Anglican church, worse than Rome ever was, yet mincing around
>under the name of protestant which it no longer deserves.
Their is no such thing as the devil, and if you want to find God then
trying looking in the one place you have obviously never looked, into
your own mind and your own heart,
You wont find the God you use to persecute and destroy others, that god
doesn't exist.
We are all given free will to choose what spiritual path we follow, you
and your Ilk would take that freedom away and force people into the
mould you want to fit them into.
>
>
>> It made anyone who talked against it outlaws, and heretics, even some of
>> the leading minds in Europe.
>> It tried to stop evolution being taught in schools and to this day still
>> insists that creationism is a valid scientific viewpoint, even though
>> any one with an ounce of sense knows its fairy stories.
>>
>>
>> Some of the leaders of the church were poisoner's, murderers, and some
>> of the most evil people in History, remember the Borgia's.
>> Even today the church tries to stop ordinary people from accessing
>> education, family planning and even health care, because if it keeps
>> people poor uneducated and steeped in superstition it might be able to
>> keep its power base.
>> The church stopped being about Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, its about
>> power, money, and blackmail.
>>
>
>You continually refer to catholicism, and your points would be very valid,
>and I could add even more on top, only you seem to think this is the
>Christian church, whereas this was the Antichrist.
Was the Protestant church any better, what about Salem were innocent
people were killed in the name of superstition.
>
>If you don't like the Antichrist, then I say, hallelujah. There's every hope
>you will like the real Christ.
I don't believe in your Christ, for me everything is part of God, and
Jesus was simply a man with a message, its a pity that you and people
like you have taken that message and reduced it to hatred and evil.
>
>> The very few real Christians I have met, live in the way they think that
>> Jesus Christ would have lived, and give themselves and their time
>> without preaching, or expecting any return, they don't ask for money,
>> power or fame.
>
>I expect they probably are preaching, but in a way that is very subtle, so
>that you don't take exception to it. If they are christians they naturally
>want you to know and share their blessings.
No they understand and accept that we follow our own spiritual path,
they don't need to preach, If you truly believe in something, then you
don't have to preach about it, you live it every day of your life.
>
>I like to do that as well, for people around me, but Usenet is not much of a
>place for that style of evangelism. Here I find the best way forward is to
>tell it like it is. Straight and blunt. That's the way this medium seems to
>work.
Not here it doesn't, the only thing you will get is killfiled, most of
us are sick to death of your message if we wanted to be Christians we
could be Christians, most of us have a better grasp of Christianity than
you do, and a lot better grasp of history. We don't need your brand of
lies and hate.
>
>
>> Those I respect, the rest of you can go back to your church and convince
>> yourself that you and only you made the world what it is today...
>
>I didn't say we only, only that we have a positive cultural balance sheet.
>What protestantism has borrowed from other cultures has made us richer
>without making them poorer.
You borrowed the hate, the killing, the abuse, the desire to remake
everyone in your own image.
Your not the first fundamentalist Christian on here not even the
hundredth, we even have ex Christian fundamentalists who are now pagans,
Seems they couldn't take the "lie for Christ " message any more, they
wanted more truth and went out to find it for themselves,
if you have to lie and invent to sell your religion then their is
something seriously wrong with your religion.
>
>Example; the famous Hymn of Luther, called colloquially the Battle Hymn of
>the Reformation, which goes "Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott" or in English
>"A safe stronghold our God is still" or "A mighty fortress is our God"
>depending on whose translation is being sung, uses a melody which goes under
>the name 'Ein' feste Burg'. Now Luther is accredited with the melody and
>Bach with buffing up some cool riffs for it about a century later, but
>originally the hymn was a drinking song from the inns and kneipen of the
>Saxony region. We took it, we sing it, we turned it into a battle hymn, but
>we didn't make the original alcoholics any poorer, they could carry on
>singing it to vulgar words if they wanted to.
Christ was about love, peace, understanding, and live and let live.
And your telling me about a battle hymn and how proud you are of it,
Wake up, and smell the roses, Where is the love, the peace, and live and
let live.
Deleted... Christian hymn... as not worth the paper its written on,
though the music is divine the song is not
>> You might even be right, and what a sad thing that is to admit, the rule
>> of money, and power, riding roughshod over hunger, poverty and disease.
>> A church that is keeping people in poverty for its own ends, a church
>> that lies and says condoms let aids through, so that its power is not
>> broken.
>
>I don't see evangelicals making issues over condoms.
Don't you, you should read your own press sometimes.
>
>>A church that says an eight year old girl who has been raped,
>> must have her baby, even though it would kill her and the child.
>
>Difficult one. I really don't know what the answer is in that case, except
>that I would have the rapist in the electric chair.
Why not put the eight year old in the chair with him, she would have
died anyway... forcing a child of eight go through with a pregnancy
shouldn't even take a moment to think about, especially when you know
the child and the baby will die.
Fortunately her parents had more sense than the church and arranged an
abortion for her, as they said if the church lets their daughter die
because of dogma, then its not a church they want to belong to.
>
>> I don't see anything for the church to be proud of, its dragged its
>> heels at every opportunity, its put barriers in the way of people who
>> want to help the poor and the hungry. Its lied about condoms even when
>> the World health authority specifically state, that condoms used
>> properly will help stop the spread of aids.
>
>You are talking Rome again.
No I am not just talking Rome, all Christianity is tarred with the same
brush.
>
>>
>> Its killed those it cant stop or gag, its murdered in the name of Jesus
>> Christ, and I don't think that he would have approved of that, and its
>> forced conversions on native peoples against their will, taking their
>> children away from them and forcing them into church schools.
>>
>
>Rome rome, on the range, where the pope and the cardinals play
>where always is heard a discouraging word, if you want read bibles or pray.
>
>> Next time you want to crow about the church think before you speak..your
>> own mouth condemns you.
>
>I hope the people to whom your concerns are rightly addressed found that
>convicting.
>
>Don't let the fact of an overwhelming majority of false Christians stop you
>coming to Christ.
>You said yourself you knew some really saved people. What a blessing that
>is.
I know a lot of people who have taken themselves out of a lying, power
mad church and found their own spiritual path, that some of them follow
a Christian path is co-incidental. They certainly don't belong to any
church you belong to.
I studied Christianity years ago, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't even
make for a good story.
I don't need your god in my life, I find your version of him, hateful,
sick and crazy... why would I want a god like that in my life.
All I say is find your own spiritual path, walk it, and find your own
personal relationship with whatever you feel is god.
No two paths are the same, we all have to find our own way in the end.
Your not saved Davey, your sick, and you want to spread your sickness to
everything and everyone else you know.
Your a walking plague carrier.
>
>Uncle Davey
>
>
--
Shez shez@oldcity.f2s.com
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