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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Hello Wiccans
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:17:05 +0100
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Uzytkownik "Shez" <shez@oldcity.f2s.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:0uRR2vADvDp$EwYu@oldcity.f2s.com...
> In article <bo1cck$9lf$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>, Uncle Davey
> <noway@jose.com> writes
> >
> >news:bo18n3$16fo1v$1@ID-140581.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> trolled:
> >> > "t_naismith" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > <cross-post from "free.christians" NG - a misnomer or plea for
> >> > assistance?>
> >> >
> >> > > Here's a better deal, Jaz; if you can admit to the rampant cultural
> >> > > thieveries of xtianity from prior cultures which took place over
> >> > > thousands of years, (cf. history), and do everything you can to
> >> > > try to redress that issue, I personally will take your request
under
> >> > > advisement. Until then, kill-file me or bugger off.
> >> >
> >> > Could you be a little more specific about what you believe we have
taken
> >> > from other cultures?
> >> >
> >> What, you don't know your own religion's history? The laundry list of
> >> examples would be considerably shorter were it to include that which
> >> was _not_ borrowed/swiped/nicked/plagiarized/co-opted from cultures
> >> which predated it. So, that's your mission, missionary; find some
tenet
> >> that was not stolen by xtianity ... there has to be at least one, nyet?
> >>
> >> T.N.
> >>
> >
> >I can tell you this, that it was the Christian church that gave literacy
to
> >many many languages, and then the secular used what we gave for their own
> >purposes.
>
> The Christian church fought literacy, and kept it within the church, it
> didn't want people reading the bible and questioning what the priests
> decreed.
No, that was the Antichrist church that did that.
Latines, Romanoi, 666, and all that.
> >
> >It was the Christian church that built many fine buildings used today for
> >exclusively pagan purposes.
>
> Pagans built many fine buildings, some of which are still in use today,
> I watched Opera the other night staged at the Coliseum in Rome.
Built on slave labour, which christians such as Shaftesbury fought to end.
> >
> >It was Christian thought that developed the legal systems that underly
> >modern democracies and free market countries.
>
> Rubbish it was the Greeks and Romans who gave us the legal system, and
> the Greeks who gave us democracy.
I thought you lived in America? That does not use Roman law.
Democracy of the Greeks would have been long forgotten had monks not kept
learning alive through the dark ages. And modern democracy was re-instated
by protestants, and has no direct line to the Greek one anyway.
> >
> >It was the Reformation that gave rise to the Industrial Revolution
>
> The Industrial revolution would probably have happened hundreds of years
> earlier if the church had not tried to stop anything that might remotely
> threaten their power base,
I am not defending the Antichrist church here, but the Church.
> >
> >It was Christians who were the leading scientists through the main
centuries
> >of progress.
>
> Don't you mean that they killed, or imprisoned the scientists, who spoke
> against the churches world views, If the church had its way, we would
> still be on a flat earth with the sun revolving around us , and us at
> the very centre of the universe,
This was never a point of faith with Christians.
Galileo had no beef with the reformers.
The same people waving instruments of torture in his face were kicking soil
into the throats of our protestant brethren as they sang psalms while being
buried alive by the Antichrist inquisition.
> >
> >It was for, admittedly mislead, Christian purposes that the basis of
modern
> >art, literature and music in all European and American culture was
founded,
> >and then hijacked by unbelievers.
>
> Art literature and culture was strong and very well established long
> before Christianity, in fact Christianity still tries to stop art and
> literature from being published if it disapproves of it, how many films
> have the church suggested that their parishioners not view, how many
> books that they should not read, how many have stood outside libraries
> demanding that their and only their ideas of what is literature be on
> the book lists.
I think they only want a return to common decency in a generation that has
lost touch with it.
>
> >
> >In short, we don't need to have any complexes at all about the balance
sheet
> >of our culture.
>
> What complexes, your ideas on history are based on fantasy, your idea of
> the church is based on fabrication, the church gave us the dark ages,
> the inquisition,
> It tried to stop the use of printing presses because it would mean
> common people would have access to the written word..
You are referring to the Roman Catholics at the time of their hijacking and
total political control by Satan.
This has nothing to do with Protestant faith, other that the fact that he
tries to get hold of us as well, and sometimes succeeds, so that we get
cases like the Anglican church, worse than Rome ever was, yet mincing around
under the name of protestant which it no longer deserves.
> It made anyone who talked against it outlaws, and heretics, even some of
> the leading minds in Europe.
> It tried to stop evolution being taught in schools and to this day still
> insists that creationism is a valid scientific viewpoint, even though
> any one with an ounce of sense knows its fairy stories.
>
>
> Some of the leaders of the church were poisoner's, murderers, and some
> of the most evil people in History, remember the Borgia's.
> Even today the church tries to stop ordinary people from accessing
> education, family planning and even health care, because if it keeps
> people poor uneducated and steeped in superstition it might be able to
> keep its power base.
> The church stopped being about Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, its about
> power, money, and blackmail.
>
You continually refer to catholicism, and your points would be very valid,
and I could add even more on top, only you seem to think this is the
Christian church, whereas this was the Antichrist.
If you don't like the Antichrist, then I say, hallelujah. There's every hope
you will like the real Christ.
> The very few real Christians I have met, live in the way they think that
> Jesus Christ would have lived, and give themselves and their time
> without preaching, or expecting any return, they don't ask for money,
> power or fame.
I expect they probably are preaching, but in a way that is very subtle, so
that you don't take exception to it. If they are christians they naturally
want you to know and share their blessings.
I like to do that as well, for people around me, but Usenet is not much of a
place for that style of evangelism. Here I find the best way forward is to
tell it like it is. Straight and blunt. That's the way this medium seems to
work.
> Those I respect, the rest of you can go back to your church and convince
> yourself that you and only you made the world what it is today...
I didn't say we only, only that we have a positive cultural balance sheet.
What protestantism has borrowed from other cultures has made us richer
without making them poorer.
Example; the famous Hymn of Luther, called colloquially the Battle Hymn of
the Reformation, which goes "Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott" or in English
"A safe stronghold our God is still" or "A mighty fortress is our God"
depending on whose translation is being sung, uses a melody which goes under
the name 'Ein' feste Burg'. Now Luther is accredited with the melody and
Bach with buffing up some cool riffs for it about a century later, but
originally the hymn was a drinking song from the inns and kneipen of the
Saxony region. We took it, we sing it, we turned it into a battle hymn, but
we didn't make the original alcoholics any poorer, they could carry on
singing it to vulgar words if they wanted to.
You can read the words, listen and sing along in German with Luther's
original Fruehneuhochdeutsch on
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/non/de/festburg.htm
and in English on
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/i/mightyfo.htm for the Hedge translation
and
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/a/safestrh.htm for the Thomas Carlisle
translation.
> You might even be right, and what a sad thing that is to admit, the rule
> of money, and power, riding roughshod over hunger, poverty and disease.
> A church that is keeping people in poverty for its own ends, a church
> that lies and says condoms let aids through, so that its power is not
> broken.
I don't see evangelicals making issues over condoms.
>A church that says an eight year old girl who has been raped,
> must have her baby, even though it would kill her and the child.
Difficult one. I really don't know what the answer is in that case, except
that I would have the rapist in the electric chair.
> I don't see anything for the church to be proud of, its dragged its
> heels at every opportunity, its put barriers in the way of people who
> want to help the poor and the hungry. Its lied about condoms even when
> the World health authority specifically state, that condoms used
> properly will help stop the spread of aids.
You are talking Rome again.
>
> Its killed those it cant stop or gag, its murdered in the name of Jesus
> Christ, and I don't think that he would have approved of that, and its
> forced conversions on native peoples against their will, taking their
> children away from them and forcing them into church schools.
>
Rome rome, on the range, where the pope and the cardinals play
where always is heard a discouraging word, if you want read bibles or pray.
> Next time you want to crow about the church think before you speak..your
> own mouth condemns you.
I hope the people to whom your concerns are rightly addressed found that
convicting.
Don't let the fact of an overwhelming majority of false Christians stop you
coming to Christ.
You said yourself you knew some really saved people. What a blessing that
is.
Uncle Davey
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