"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message news:<c4sei2$bi3$0@pita.alt.net>...
> "Frank Pericope" <frank.pericope@oneimage.com> wrote in message
> news:dc55e47f.0404050427.19f264a1@posting.google.com...
> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> news:<c4p34t$s0t$0@pita.alt.net>...
> > > Uzytkownik "Frank Pericope" <frank.pericope@oneimage.com> napisal w
> > > wiadomosci news:dc55e47f.0404040515.46fbda6d@posting.google.com...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > >
> > > > We're all capable of righteousness, as well as unrighteousness.
> > > >
> > > > - F.
> > >
> > > When it says 'there is none righteous, no not one', that means that by
> > > nature we actually aren't capable of righteousness.
> >
> > Davey, that's a song lyric. I understand it has that meaning for you,
> > but unless you have some authority/source no one else has (Gastrich,
> > perhaps?) neither Romans nor Psalms means what you want it to mean.
> >
> > Though it explains a lot if you think you are incapable of good
> > behavior without God's direct intervention.
> >
>
> Not think.
> Know.
> If you think you can do good without God's help, then you have not yet
> understood something.
I disagree. But of course, I'm no one's authority. Why don't you tell
me all about what I need to understand? You seem to be pretty
confident that you know more than me. Show me.
>
> > >
> > > If God enables us to act righteously in any case, then that's to be
> thankful
> > > for.
> > >
> > > In any event, in practice Christians often are a lot worse than atheists
> and
> > > people who believe in religions without the Saviour, after all,
> Christians
> > > are under attack in a way they are not.
> >
> > Oh phooey. I am not under attack.
>
> I'm sure you're not.
> After all, you go around telling your brothers not to evangelise. What
> devils would attck you for that?
I do not tell anyone not to evangelize. I suggest that it's my opinion
that anyone's evangelizing will be much more successful if they'd set
an example rather than a trap.
> You've already signed up to the Faustian pact, I'm sure you have peace like
> a river.
Sorry, though I've played Marlow's Faust on stage, I've never actually
sold my soul. Of course, Jason will tell you that, as I was once
saved, I'm always saved. So, according to your hero, I can sign just
such a contract and have no fear of its enforcement. (Some doctrine,
huh?!) So if you're a fan of Jason's, you needn't worry about my soul.
But thanks for your obvious concern.
On the other hand, I think OSAS's a load of hooey.
>
> > None of the Christians I know are
> > under attack. And most Christians who think themselves under attack
> > would, I think, find their way much easier if they would but stop
> > mind-tackling unbelievers and simply do their best to live the values
> > espoused by Christ.
> >
>
> You are absolutely right!
> The quickest way to stop being under attack is to stop evangelising.
> No news to me.
> You don't mention how we can live the values espoused by Christ without
> preaching the gospel and getting into conflict situations, when this is
> precisely what He told us to do, though, do you?
>
I'm not sure you understand my posiiton. I don't see anything wrong
with contending with others who's faith differs from yours. I just
think you'll find it to better effect if you demonstrate humility,
integrity, love, etc. rather than vanity, arrogance, and deceit. Call
me crazy...!
>
> > For example -- think evolution's wrong? Fine. Live without it. But
> > building sandcastles in the mind and trying to sell them as real
> > estate in public is going to lead to some derision. As you have seen.
> >
>
> Evolution is a big fairy tale, but in point of fact the gospel is big enough
> to cope with people believing it, if only they believe that Christ has died
> in their place because they needed it. If you say you can do good on your
> own, then did you need Christ to die in your place? Isn't his death on
> Calvary rather wasted on you?
Doing good isn't the way, Davey. I thought that was made pretty clear
in the New Testament. Doing good is good, and it's expected of us; but
salvation is through Christ, right? Isn't that why we needed him?
Wasn't that pretty much the whole point?
>
> > Ideally, knowing the love and the
> > > forgiveness of God, we should be walking head and shoulders about other
> men
> > > and women in goodness, but in actual fact this seems very hard to
> achieve
> > > and is very rare.
> >
> > I agree it is difficult. But too many of us use that as an excuse for
> > our own behavior. And if one's public behavior brings significant
> > levels of condemnation from both believers and unbelievers, perhaps
> > one should consider 'cutting off' that hand and withdrawing from
> > public forums until one can behave in a righteous way--at least more
> > often than not.
> >
> > But that's just my opinion.
> >
>
> Well I take the view that if I preach the Gospel, people will seek to
> compromise me. They will take terrific exception to things about me, no
> doubt imperfections, but which would be fine if I were on the side of either
> works religion or rejection of religion.
People's objections to your behavior may not be the result of the
message you carry, but of the way that you betray that message with
your actions. Even if your claim to persecution were true, it is not
evidence that your persecution is a result of the message you carry.
It may be evidence of a martyr complex, though.
Why be on any 'side', Davey? What's the point of doctrinal squabbling?
Let go the doctrine and trust in Christ. Follow his example. Call no
man 'teacher', as we are intructed. It's all in there. You don't need
to hear it from some guy whose speech can't even keep your mind off
breakfast.
>
> Should such imperfections, even when people take the max mileage out of them
> because of the mastery in spin that they have developed over the years of
> Usenet and RL activity, stop me from stating what I believe to be true?
> Well, according to what I believe to be true, no. I am telling you that I am
> a sinner, so don't look at me, look at Christ for salvation. That's the
> whole point.
If you state it with integrity, they will discuss it with you. If your
behavior lacks integrity, humility, and love, they will count you a
hypocrite and the message you shout will be lost.
>
> > >
> > > I know I can't seem to achieve it, myself. I couldn't even listen
> through
> > > the second sermon this morning without dreaming up a new pancake recipe.
> >
> > Godly behavior does not, it seems to me, come from listening to
> > sermons. IMHO, organized religion does as much spiritual damage as it
> > does good. You might find yourself more interested if your authority
> > is Christ rather than that guy standing up in front of the crowd.
>
> Preaching sermons is a God ordained way to spread truth and help the flock
> to grow. The sermon was extremely good and pointed to the authoty of Christ,
> not his own authority, but if we do not put time aside to go and think about
> these things, it is easy to forget them.
I disagree. I see plenty of instruction by Christ warning us against
calling other men 'father' and 'teacher'; or calling ourselves
teachers. The calls for priesthood come from elsewhere--from mere men.
>
> >
> > You are perfectly capable of leading a goodly life, Uncle Davey. Quit
> > making excuses for failing to do so. "The devil made me do it" is a
> > punch line, not an alibi.
> >
>
> You obviously don't really have much in depth knowledge of the devil, but
> one thing is true, I can manage to be iniquitous pefectly well even without
> his help.
And if I were to say you obviously don't really have much in-depth
knowlege of the Christ, I'd have a much authority as you to back up my
presumption. Which is to say, none.
So who do you blame for your iniquity, Davey? Adam? Eve? (Hmmm...)
Satan? God? Or yourself? If it's your iniquity, it's yours to change.
>
> > <snip story>
> >
> > >
> > > Which just goes to show we get better than we deserve.
> > >
> > > Uncle Davey
> >
> > Which may also show you that you'd do better publishing pancake
> > recipies than spiritual ones.
> >
>
> The one does not exclude the other.
>
> Fresh garden peas, fried onions, philadelphia cream cheese and mayonnaise on
> a blini mix is good, but eye hath not seen, nor ear heard neither has
> enetered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them
> that love him.
>
> Uncle Davey
Mix all the good intentions you can muster into a large bowl. Blend in
1 cup hostility, a dash of paranoia; season with vanity and arrogance,
to taste, and stir in public.
Makes enough asphalt to pave a broad, meandering road to hell.
- F.
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