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From: will_post_with_this@yahoo.com (Harry Redenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Evolution - Blind Heart Surgery
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 03:48:23 +0000 (UTC)
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MitCoffey@aol.com (Mitchell Coffey) wrote in message news:<a766a589.0401312346.4ec5e67f@posting.google.com>...
> "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message news:<bvgku7$gt5$1@news.onet.pl>...
> > > "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> news:<bvd11c$k18$2@news.onet.pl>...
> > > > news:a766a589.0401261129.4516665d@posting.google.com...
> > > > > AC <mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:<slrnc1843b.1j0.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem>...
> > > > > > ["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
> > > > > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC),
> > > > > > Piorokrat <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > news:slrnc167m3.bc.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
> > > > > > >> ["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Would the crown fall from your head if you actually allowed my
> > group
> > to stay
> > > > > > > in the discussion, without making me write it back in every time?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 21:58:31 +0000 (UTC),
> > > > > > >> Bennett Standeven <berry@pop.networkusa.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> news:<buttes$csv$0@pita.alt.net>...
> > > > > > >> >> "Ineedmoney" <mail@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > > > >> >> news:butqab$a2v$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > >> >> > news:butoq1$4hq$0@pita.alt.net...
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > "Cheezits" <cheezits32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > >> >> > > news:Xns947A4B5CBF133cheezitsnetzeronet@129.250.170.83...
> > > > > > >> >> > > > laurieappieton@aol.com (LaurieAppIeton) won't even try
> to
> > > > defend
> > > > this
> > > > > > >> >> > > > nonsense, but let's have some fun with it anyway:
> > > > > > >> >> > > > > 1) no natural process which resulted in information
> forming
> > > > > > >> >> > > > > automatically in matter, has ever been observed;
> > > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > > No act of divine creation has ever been observed.
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > Oh yes it has, Sue. When God confounded the languages at
> Babel,
> > > > > > humanity
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > >> >> > > able to observe it. That's why we were scattered all over
> the
> > > > > > earth, and
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > >> >> > > speak languages whose families cannot possibly have a
> > common
> > ancestor.
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > Any evidence of that outside the Bible, shmuck?
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > Ed
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> Sure.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> All the evidence of a lack of common ancestor between the
> > various
> > language
> > > > > > >> >> families lies in the fact that in the nearly two hundred years
> > of
> > sensible
> > > > > > >> >> study of philology that we have had, no-one has been able to
> > posit
> > one.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> Or even give a reasonable envisaging of one.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> So, if you would like to say that it's wrong, then kindly show
> me
> > > > what
> > > > the
> > > > > > >> >> common ancestor language could have looked like between, say,
> Finno-Ugric
> > > > > > >> >> and Indo-European, and kindly leave my genitalia out of this
> > > > discussion
> > > > if
> > > > > > >> >> you want to continue to be treated with respect. There are
> > many
> > more
> > > > > > >> >> elevated uses of Yiddish phraseology.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Look up Nostratic; it is a putative common ancestor of
> > Finno-Ugric
> > and
> > > > > > >> > Indo-European. Of course, the "fossil record" for languages
> > only
> > goes
> > > > > > >> > back 6000 years, so anything prior to that is guesswork.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As far as I know, this is hardly accepted by most linguists, and
> > > > really
> > > > the
> > > > > > >> whole thing is besides the point. Uncle Davey seems to have
> > created
> > this
> > > > > > >> odd bit of illogic where we need to find a common ancestor
> > between
> > all
> > > > > > >> languages, otherwise the theory of biological evolution is not
> > true.
> > First
> > > > > > >> of all, linguistics does not require that we actually be able to
> tie
> > > > any
> > > > of
> > > > > > >> the major language groups together with common ancestors (though
> > that
> > would
> > > > > > >> be cool), and language evolution shows some similarity to
> biological
> > > > > > >> evolution, is a seperate process relying upon different
> mechanisms.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> IN other words, Uncle Davey is just spouting nonsense.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nonsense, you say, but my question has got all your side coming
> > back
> > with
> > > > > > > contradictory arguments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And what are those contradictory arguments. Spell them out.
> > > >
> > > > Some of you are saying languages don't subject to the laws of evolution,
> and
> > > > some of you are saying they do.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nonsense shouldn't have that effect, now, should it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only nonsense around here is that you take two processes which
> are
> > > > > > described by the word evolution and hung one on the other. At best,
> that is
> > > > > > the sign of a dishonest individual trying to score a weak rhetorical
> point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And we know that you are a dishonest person.
> > > >
> > > > Just deal with the issues, not my imperfections, perfectionboy.
> > > >
> > > > That's what you would do, if you were so honest yourself.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At times he seems to be conflating at least three processes. There is
> > > > > biological evolution itself, then there are two senses of the term
> > > > > "linguistic evolution": the evolution of languages (e.g., Latin to
> > > > > French), and the evolution of the capacity for language. As you know,
> > > > > the latter is presumably a subset of biological evolution, and
> > > > > scientists have attempted to account for it as such. The former
> > > > > could, I suppose, be a subset of biological evolution, but Sockdaddy
> > > > > needs to explain why.
> > > >
> > > > That's Sockuncle, to you.
> > > >
> > > > The reason is that languages are part of the human biology.
> > > >
> > > > Just say, just say that isn't true.
> > > >
> > > > > Most of all, he needs to identify which process
> > > > > he's referring to, else he's just another decerebriate claiming that
> > > > > theories of biological evolution must account for every process with a
> > > > > name with the word "evolution" in it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mitchell Coffey
> > > >
> > > > So you're calling people who believe that biological evolution accounts
> for
> > > > more than it really does 'decerebriate' (sic) are you?
> > > >
> > > > That's a good one.
> > > >
> > > > I'll remember that as the reason people think we can get from kind to
> kind
> > > > by evolution.
> > > >
> > > > Uncle Davey
> > >
> > > I'm coming in late on this one, and I don't have your fancy book
> > > learnings you all do, but it seems to me, as a regular average joe on
> > > the street, that biology would have little to do with language
> > > evolution as human being have been biologically the same for as long
> > > as we have been humans.
> >
> > Well, if you say that, you say that behaviour is not part of biology.
> >
> > And since behaviour determines who breeds with whom, what you say undermines
> > evolutionary theory.
>
> Certain behaviours have heritable genetic components; others don't.
> Those behaviours with heritable genetic components may be acted upon
> by natural selections. The other cannot be (directly, at least).
>
> Do you believe that the languages one speaks are genetically
> determined?
>
> Mitchell Coffey
No, that sounds very far fetched to me.
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