On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:27:12 +0100, "Ariaan"
<thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Uncle Davey wrote:
>> <thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
>>> BB, you know what this text is really all about? I'll show you, and
>>> I'm gonna use your beloved King James Authorised Version. Below I've
>>> pasted the first four chapters of Zechariah, and we're gonna walk
>>> through it and look at its structure and I will highlight the
>>> important events.
>>>
>>> _Zechariah_
>>> Chapter 1
>>> 1 In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word
>>> of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo
>>> the prophet, saying,
>>> [*Okay, here the word comes to Zech in a general way*]
>>> 2 The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers.
>>> 3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn
>>> ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith
>>> the LORD of hosts.
>>> 4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have
>>> cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your
>>> evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor
>>> hearken unto me, saith the LORD.
>>> 5 Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for
>>> ever? 6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants
>>> the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they
>>> returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us,
>>> according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt
>>> with us. [*End of the first part, the general LORD's speaking*]
>>> 7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is
>>> the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the
>>> LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the
>>> prophet, saying, 8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a
>>> red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the
>>> bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
>>> 9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked
>>> with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
>>> [*Okay, here we have an angel speaking with Zech*
>>> *Now pay close attention, because he's important*
>>> *He says he will show Zech what it means*
>>> *Then the vision continues*]
>>> 10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said,
>>> These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through
>>> the earth. [*Is this is the same angel who is talking to Zech*?
>>> *Let's continue and see*]
>>> 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the
>>> myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth,
>>> and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
>>> [*Could this angel of the LORD be that same man*?
>>> *The one speaking to Zech*?]
>>> 12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts,
>>> how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of
>>> Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and
>>> ten years? [*Look, the angel of the LORD asks the LORD*]
>>> 13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good
>>> words and comfortable words.
>>> [*Oh look, yes, the LORD replies to the angel*
>>> *who spoke with Zech. So this angel is obviously*
>>> *none other than the angel of the LORD*
>>> *So Zech spoke with the angel of the LORD*]
>>> 14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou,
>>> saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and
>>> for Zion with a great jealousy.
>>> [*Okay, now the angel of the LORD continues*
>>> *to speak the LORD's word*]
>>> 15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease:
>>> for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the
>>> affliction. [*This part always brings a broad grin to my face*
>>> *The LORD used the wicked evildoers to punish*
>>> *His people, but the wicked evildoers were a bit*
>>> *too enthusiastic in carrying out that punishment*]
>>> 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with
>>> mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and
>>> a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
>>> 17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through
>>> prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet
>>> comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
>>> 18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
>>> 19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these?
>>> And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah,
>>> Israel, and Jerusalem.
>>> 20 And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
>>> [*Oh oh, who showed Zech*? *The LORD*?
>>> *But the first time it was the angel of the LORD*
>>> *who said he would show Zech*. *Now this means*
>>> *the angel of the LORD is the LORD Himself*]
>>> 21 Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These
>>> are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up
>>> his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of
>>> the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to
>>> scatter it. [*Here the angel of the LORD explains the*
>>> *rest of the vision*]
>>>
>>> Chapter 2
>>> 1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a
>>> measuring line in his hand.
>>> 2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure
>>> Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length
>>> thereof.
>>> 3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and
>>> another angel went out to meet him,
>>> [*Okay, now here we have a typo in the KJV*
>>> *Because the angel of the LORD is the man with*
>>> *the measuring stick and the one speaking again*
>>> *with Zech so when he went forth he is obviously*
>>> *not the one that should run to Zech, but the other*
>>> *angel is the one who should run, which is also*
>>> *translated that way in other translations*
>>> *because that makes sense*
>>> *In the source text were probably only pronouns*,
>>> *so the KJV translators made a mistake*]
>>> 4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying,
>>> Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the
>>> multitude of men and cattle therein:
>>> [*So here we have the angel of the LORD again*
>>> *speaking the LORD's word to the other angel*
>>> *and telling him to tell this to Zech*
>>> *So this is the angel of the LORD telling the other*
>>> *angel exactly what to say*
>>> *Also notice that we haven't heard from Zech*,
>>> *other than a question for an explanation*
>>> *So Zech is not prophecying here, only asking*
>>> *and listening and the angel is doing all the talking*
>>> *doing all the bringing of the LORD's word*
>>> *Keep that in mind, because that is important*]
>>> 5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round
>>> about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
>>> 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith
>>> the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the
>>> heaven, saith the LORD.
>>> [*This is still the angel of the LORD telling*
>>> *the other angel what to say*
>>> *we haven't had a change of scene yet, so*
>>> *this is still the same as above, namely*
>>> *the angel of the LORD speaking to the other angel*]
>>> 7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of
>>> Babylon. [*And now we come to it, the important part*
>>> *now we will see who the 'me' really is*]
>>> 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me
>>> unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you
>>> toucheth the apple of his eye.
>>> [*LOOK, this is the angel of the LORD speaking of*
>>> *himself; the LORD has sent His Angel to the nations*]
>>> 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be
>>> a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts
>>> hath sent me. [*See? The angel of the LORD is sent and will shake
>>> his*
>>> *hand upon them and everyone will know*
>>> *that the LORD has sent him*
>>> *The prophet doesn't have such power*
>>> *only the angel of the LORD does*!
>>> *Now the 'me' finally makes sense*]
>>> 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
>>> will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
>>> [*Now suddenly the LORD is the subject again*]
>>> 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and
>>> shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou
>>> shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
>>> [*See? The LORD says He will dwell in their midst*
>>> *and they shall know that the LORD has sent him*
>>> *Thus here it is finally said plain and clear*
>>> *the angel of the :LORD is the LORD of hosts*
>>> *and the LORD of hosts sends the LORD of hosts*
>>> *There you have it, two LORDs of hosts*]
>>> 12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land,
>>> and shall choose Jerusalem again.
>>> 13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out
>>> of his holy habitation.
>>> [*And that really is a verse to fall quiet by*]
>>>
>>> Chapter 3
>>> 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel
>>> of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
>>> [*And now the story continues, with another vision*]
>>> *so obviously Zech is the subject again*
>>> *Because the story moves on, into the next chapter*]
>>> 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even
>>> the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand
>>> plucked out of the fire?
>>> [*Look: the LORD says that the LORD should*
>>> *rebuke Satan. So LORD1 invokes LORD2*
>>> *And you can't say it's a sort of majestic speach*
>>> *because no-one speaks of himself like that*
>>> *no matter how sovereign they are*]
>>> 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the
>>> angel. [*Look, Joshua stands before the angel of the LORD*]
>>> 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him,
>>> saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he
>>> said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I
>>> will clothe thee with change of raiment.
>>> [*The angel of the LORD has caused Joshua's*
>>> *iniquity to go away. Now who else but*
>>> *the LORD can do that? No-one*
>>> *So again, this shows the angel of the LORD*
>>> *is the LORD of hosts himself*]
>>> 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set
>>> a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the
>>> angel of the LORD stood by.
>>> [*Whoah, ole Zech's gotta say add something*
>>> *to the ceremony as well. To add to Joshua's honour*
>>> *and the angel of the LORD thinks it's alright*]
>>> 6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
>>> 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and
>>> if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house,
>>> and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk
>>> among these that stand by.
>>> 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that
>>> sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will
>>> bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
>>> 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one
>>> stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving
>>> thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of
>>> that land in one day. [*And this is where it gets REALLY important*
>>> *the LORD says the BRANCH is gonna remove*
>>> *the iniquity of that land* (*as with Joshua's*)
>>> *Now who removed Joshua's iniquity again? Yes*,
>>> *that was the angel of the LORD. So the angel of*
>>> *the LORD is the same as the BRANCH*
>>> *and the angel of the LORD is the same as the*
>>> *LORD of hosts, thus*
>>> *the BRANCH is the LORD of hosts*
>>> *Jesus Christ IS the LORD of hosts*!!!]
>>> 10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his
>>> neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
>>>
>>> Chapter 4
>>> 1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a
>>> man that is wakened out of his sleep,
>>> 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and
>>> behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it,
>>> and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps,
>>> which are upon the top thereof:
>>> 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl,
>>> and the other upon the left side thereof.
>>> 4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying,
>>> What are these, my lord?
>>> 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me,
>>> Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
>>> [*Now the angel of the LORD starts speaking*]
>>> 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of
>>> the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by
>>> my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
>>> [*This is an important part, because here the LORD*
>>> *effectively foretells Jesus' peacework*
>>> *This verse says the Messiah is not coming to*
>>> *do His work in power, but in the spirit of the LORD*
>>> *which is something other than the Jews were expecting*
>>> *They expected a mighty king, saving them from their*
>>> *wordly enemies. Well, the BRANCH is coming with*
>>> *the spirit, to do His work in peace*]
>>> 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt
>>> become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with
>>> shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
>>> [*The angel continues and stresses his words*]
>>> 8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
>>> 9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house;
>>> his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of
>>> hosts hath sent me unto you.
>>> [*Who 'me'? The angel of the LORD*]
>>> 10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall
>>> rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with
>>> those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro
>>> through the whole earth. [*End angel of the LORD speaking*]
>>> 11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive
>>> trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side
>>> thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these
>>> two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the
>>> golden oil out of themselves?
>>> 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And
>>> I said, No, my lord.
>>> 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the
>>> Lord of the whole earth.
>>> [*End of our little walkthrough*]
>>>
>>> So, this appears to be a key book in the Bible, this book of the
>>> prophet Zechariah. Not only does it speak of the end of the
>>> Babylonian exile, but also does it speak of the One who was to come,
>>> the BRANCH, the Messiah, and it reveals the nature of His work,
>>> which is different from what the Jews were expecting. It describes
>>> Jesus Christ in exactly. But the most important thing is, for now
>>> anyway, that it reveals that there are two LORD's of hosts and that
>>> the angel of the LORD is the LORD of hosts and that the angel of the
>>> LORD is the BRANCH is the Messiah and that the Messiah is the LORD
>>> of hosts.
>>>
>>> Rejoyce!
>>>
>>> Ariaan
>>>
>>
>> That's a keeper!
>>
>> Uncle Davey
>>
>> (It's quite amusing, in a way, that we've got a chap called Ariaan
>> arguing this well against Arianism!)
>
>Well, you know, in Dutch a follower of Arius is indeed called an 'Ariaan'.
>But rest assured, my name is derived from 'Adriaan' or 'Adrianus', or as you
>would say: Adrian
>Well, who knows, perhaps a little joke by the LORD, eh? ;-)
>
>Oh, and I should probably have moved my comment above 4:8 one verse down to
>4:9. Someone commented on that, and of course verse 8 is Zech speaking and
>verse 9 is the angel continuing. So that was a little 'formatting error'.
>
>Ariaan
>
Ariaan:
One of my son's is named Adrian. Actually he is my step son. He
looks almost exactly like Will Smith, the movie star. Acts like him,
too.
BB
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