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From: "Ariaan" <thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
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Subject: Re: Zechariah chapters 1-4 walkthrough and explanation
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:38:34 +0100
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Bible Bob wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:12:54 +0100, "Ariaan"
> <thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> BB, you know what this text is really all about? I'll show you, and
>> I'm gonna use your beloved King James Authorised Version. Below I've
>> pasted the first four chapters of Zechariah, and we're gonna walk
>> through it and look at its structure and I will highlight the
>> important events.
>>
>> _Zechariah_
>> Chapter 1
>> 1 In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word
>> of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo
>> the prophet, saying,
>> [*Okay, here the word comes to Zech in a general way*]
>> 2 The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers.
>> 3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn
>> ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith
>> the LORD of hosts.
>> 4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have
>> cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your
>> evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor
>> hearken unto me, saith the LORD.
>> 5 Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for
>> ever? 6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants
>> the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they
>> returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us,
>> according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt
>> with us. [*End of the first part, the general LORD's speaking*]
>> 7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is
>> the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the
>> LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the
>> prophet, saying, 8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a
>> red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the
>> bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
>> 9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked
>> with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
>> [*Okay, here we have an angel speaking with Zech*
>> *Now pay close attention, because he's important*
>> *He says he will show Zech what it means*
>> *Then the vision continues*]
>> 10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said,
>> These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through
>> the earth. [*Is this is the same angel who is talking to Zech*?
>> *Let's continue and see*]
>> 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the
>> myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth,
>> and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
>> [*Could this angel of the LORD be that same man*?
>> *The one speaking to Zech*?]
>> 12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts,
>> how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of
>> Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and
>> ten years? [*Look, the angel of the LORD asks the LORD*]
>> 13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good
>> words and comfortable words.
>> [*Oh look, yes, the LORD replies to the angel*
>> *who spoke with Zech. So this angel is obviously*
>> *none other than the angel of the LORD*
>> *So Zech spoke with the angel of the LORD*]
>> 14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou,
>> saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and
>> for Zion with a great jealousy.
>> [*Okay, now the angel of the LORD continues*
>> *to speak the LORD's word*]
>> 15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease:
>> for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the
>> affliction. [*This part always brings a broad grin to my face*
>> *The LORD used the wicked evildoers to punish*
>> *His people, but the wicked evildoers were a bit*
>> *too enthusiastic in carrying out that punishment*]
>> 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with
>> mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and
>> a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
>> 17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through
>> prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet
>> comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
>> 18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
>> 19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these?
>> And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah,
>> Israel, and Jerusalem.
>> 20 And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
>> [*Oh oh, who showed Zech*? *The LORD*?
>> *But the first time it was the angel of the LORD*
>> *who said he would show Zech*. *Now this means*
>> *the angel of the LORD is the LORD Himself*]
>> 21 Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These
>> are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up
>> his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of
>> the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to
>> scatter it. [*Here the angel of the LORD explains the*
>> *rest of the vision*]
>>
>> Chapter 2
>> 1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a
>> measuring line in his hand.
>> 2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure
>> Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length
>> thereof.
>> 3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and
>> another angel went out to meet him,
>> [*Okay, now here we have a typo in the KJV*
>> *Because the angel of the LORD is the man with*
>> *the measuring stick and the one speaking again*
>> *with Zech so when he went forth he is obviously*
>> *not the one that should run to Zech, but the other*
>> *angel is the one who should run, which is also*
>> *translated that way in other translations*
>> *because that makes sense*
>> *In the source text were probably only pronouns*,
>> *so the KJV translators made a mistake*]
>> 4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying,
>> Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the
>> multitude of men and cattle therein:
>> [*So here we have the angel of the LORD again*
>> *speaking the LORD's word to the other angel*
>> *and telling him to tell this to Zech*
>> *So this is the angel of the LORD telling the other*
>> *angel exactly what to say*
>> *Also notice that we haven't heard from Zech*,
>> *other than a question for an explanation*
>> *So Zech is not prophecying here, only asking*
>> *and listening and the angel is doing all the talking*
>> *doing all the bringing of the LORD's word*
>> *Keep that in mind, because that is important*]
>> 5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round
>> about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
>> 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith
>> the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the
>> heaven, saith the LORD.
>> [*This is still the angel of the LORD telling*
>> *the other angel what to say*
>> *we haven't had a change of scene yet, so*
>> *this is still the same as above, namely*
>> *the angel of the LORD speaking to the other angel*]
>> 7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of
>> Babylon. [*And now we come to it, the important part*
>> *now we will see who the 'me' really is*]
>> 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me
>> unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you
>> toucheth the apple of his eye.
>> [*LOOK, this is the angel of the LORD speaking of*
>> *himself; the LORD has sent His Angel to the nations*]
>> 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be
>> a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts
>> hath sent me. [*See? The angel of the LORD is sent and will shake
>> his*
>> *hand upon them and everyone will know*
>> *that the LORD has sent him*
>> *The prophet doesn't have such power*
>> *only the angel of the LORD does*!
>> *Now the 'me' finally makes sense*]
>> 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
>> will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
>> [*Now suddenly the LORD is the subject again*]
>> 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and
>> shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou
>> shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
>> [*See? The LORD says He will dwell in their midst*
>> *and they shall know that the LORD has sent him*
>> *Thus here it is finally said plain and clear*
>> *the angel of the :LORD is the LORD of hosts*
>> *and the LORD of hosts sends the LORD of hosts*
>> *There you have it, two LORDs of hosts*]
>> 12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land,
>> and shall choose Jerusalem again.
>> 13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out
>> of his holy habitation.
>> [*And that really is a verse to fall quiet by*]
>>
>> Chapter 3
>> 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel
>> of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
>> [*And now the story continues, with another vision*]
>> *so obviously Zech is the subject again*
>> *Because the story moves on, into the next chapter*]
>> 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even
>> the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand
>> plucked out of the fire?
>> [*Look: the LORD says that the LORD should*
>> *rebuke Satan. So LORD1 invokes LORD2*
>> *And you can't say it's a sort of majestic speach*
>> *because no-one speaks of himself like that*
>> *no matter how sovereign they are*]
>> 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the
>> angel. [*Look, Joshua stands before the angel of the LORD*]
>> 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him,
>> saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he
>> said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I
>> will clothe thee with change of raiment.
>> [*The angel of the LORD has caused Joshua's*
>> *iniquity to go away. Now who else but*
>> *the LORD can do that? No-one*
>> *So again, this shows the angel of the LORD*
>> *is the LORD of hosts himself*]
>> 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set
>> a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the
>> angel of the LORD stood by.
>> [*Whoah, ole Zech's gotta say add something*
>> *to the ceremony as well. To add to Joshua's honour*
>> *and the angel of the LORD thinks it's alright*]
>> 6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
>> 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and
>> if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house,
>> and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk
>> among these that stand by.
>> 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that
>> sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will
>> bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
>> 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one
>> stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving
>> thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of
>> that land in one day. [*And this is where it gets REALLY important*
>> *the LORD says the BRANCH is gonna remove*
>> *the iniquity of that land* (*as with Joshua's*)
>> *Now who removed Joshua's iniquity again? Yes*,
>> *that was the angel of the LORD. So the angel of*
>> *the LORD is the same as the BRANCH*
>> *and the angel of the LORD is the same as the*
>> *LORD of hosts, thus*
>> *the BRANCH is the LORD of hosts*
>> *Jesus Christ IS the LORD of hosts*!!!]
>> 10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his
>> neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
>>
>> Chapter 4
>> 1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a
>> man that is wakened out of his sleep,
>> 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and
>> behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it,
>> and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps,
>> which are upon the top thereof:
>> 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl,
>> and the other upon the left side thereof.
>> 4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying,
>> What are these, my lord?
>> 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me,
>> Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
>> [*Now the angel of the LORD starts speaking*]
>> 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of
>> the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by
>> my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
>> [*This is an important part, because here the LORD*
>> *effectively foretells Jesus' peacework*
>> *This verse says the Messiah is not coming to*
>> *do His work in power, but in the spirit of the LORD*
>> *which is something other than the Jews were expecting*
>> *They expected a mighty king, saving them from their*
>> *wordly enemies. Well, the BRANCH is coming with*
>> *the spirit, to do His work in peace*]
>> 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt
>> become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with
>> shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
>> [*The angel continues and stresses his words*]
>> 8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
>> 9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house;
>> his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of
>> hosts hath sent me unto you.
>> [*Who 'me'? The angel of the LORD*]
>> 10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall
>> rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with
>> those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro
>> through the whole earth. [*End angel of the LORD speaking*]
>> 11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive
>> trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side
>> thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these
>> two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the
>> golden oil out of themselves?
>> 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And
>> I said, No, my lord.
>> 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the
>> Lord of the whole earth.
>> [*End of our little walkthrough*]
>>
>> So, this appears to be a key book in the Bible, this book of the
>> prophet Zechariah. Not only does it speak of the end of the
>> Babylonian exile, but also does it speak of the One who was to come,
>> the BRANCH, the Messiah, and it reveals the nature of His work,
>> which is different from what the Jews were expecting. It describes
>> Jesus Christ in exactly. But the most important thing is, for now
>> anyway, that it reveals that there are two LORD's of hosts and that
>> the angel of the LORD is the LORD of hosts and that the angel of the
>> LORD is the BRANCH is the Messiah and that the Messiah is the LORD
>> of hosts.
>>
>> Rejoyce!
>>
>> Ariaan
>>
> You are overcomplicating it Ariaan.
>
> Zechariah is giving details of the visions (revelations) he saw
> concerning future events and the speaker is Zechariah who is the "me"
> we are talking about.
If you really read what it says in Zechariah, then you have to see that this
is the only possible explanation. The whole time it was the angel speaking
the LORD's word and Zech now and then asking a question. Never at any time
did Zech prophecy; he just underwent the vision and that was it.
> I am kind of tied up with taxes for my business right now, but will
> come back to this later when I have more time to devote to it.
Please read the chapters carefully; you cannot get around the fact that it
is the angel, and not Zech speaking.
> It is good you picked up on the Branch. The Branch is spoken of twice
> in Zech and foretells two aspects of Christs future fourfold ministry
> to Israel and two oft eh Gospels. The other ones are in Jer 23:5,6
> and Isa 4:2. Isa 4:2 fortells the Branch, the Son of God, the Gospel
> of John, Jer 23:5,6, foretells Christ the King and the Gospel of
> Matthew, Zech 3:8 foretells Christ the Servant and Mark, and Zech 6:12
> foretells Christ the Man and the Gospel of Luke.
Yes, that was quite a surprise, actually. At first I didn't really want to
include chapter four, but now I'm glad I did. Because that chapter shows the
connection between the LORD, the angel of the LORD and the Messiah. And the
mention of the Messiah's work comes in handy when talking to Jews who deny
that Jesus is the Messiah.
Thanks for the other branch texts. I'll have a look at them and possibly
write them down for future use.
Later, and good luck with your tax affairs,
Ariaan
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