Uzytkownik "Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:orcr10pndiiln3pfh0e016ag5vcltff9u7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:31:42 +0100, "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> ><thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
> >> Bible Bob wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:34:45 +0100, "Ariaan"
> >> >
<thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Bible Bob wrote:
> >> >>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:02:38 +0100, "Ariaan"
> >> >>>
> ><thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Bible Bob wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:06:10 +0100, "Ariaan"
> >> >>>>>
> >>
<thisisagenuineaddresssopleaseomittheobvioustoreplyNOOOSPAM@hotmail.com>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Piorokrat wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> Uzytkownik "Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> napisal w
> >> >>>>>>> wiadomosci news:sj0o10hsgmihvve80u8tos3uhl86eep47m@4ax.com...
> >> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:12:41 +0100, "Piorokrat"
> >> >>>>>>>> <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Uzytkownik "Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> napisal w
> >> >>>>>>>>> wiadomosci news:hfsn109a401gqvc5f7cb1v777nhp8jpumm@4ax.com...
> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:07:45 +0100, "Piorokrat"
> >> >>>>>>>>>> <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Uzytkownik "Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> napisal w
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wiadomosci
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> news:ulqn10l9t1ih71q0c2gb8us2gj35u0kupr@4ax.com...
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:10:50 +0100, "Uncle Davey"
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "C Spivey" <cspivey@premiercomp.net> wrote in message
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:bv9acb$ndn$1@news.chatlink.com...
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH"
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two Thousand Years ago a certain Man, innocent of all
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrongdoing, was taken into custody by the authorities,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> given a trial in which He was charged of crimes He had
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not committed, and even when "no fault" could be
> >> >>>>>>> found
> >> >>>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Him,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was condemned to the cruelest death that man could
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> invent.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now it should not be supposed that simply because these
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two Thousand Years have passed that this terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> miscarriage of justice will not be avenged in the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Highest Court! Nor should it be supposed that everyone
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
> >> >>>>>>> has
> >> >>>>>>>>> had
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> part in this travesty will escape the judgment of this
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Court!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You may think you know nothing, at all, about this
event.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you are still guilty of His blood, and it behooves
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, now, to cry unto Him, "the Judge of all the earth",
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for mercy and grace, in, what cannot be otherwise, your
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impending and eternal doom!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> His name is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, who, in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the great
> >> >>>>>>> est
> >> >>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> love
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and grace, paid our debt of sin, Himself, on the Cross
of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Calvary.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Though He was crucified at the hands of wicked men, Jews
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Gentiles are guilty of His death. But more, it was
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your sins, your life style, that nailed Him to the
Cross,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you are not innocent in this matter, but guilty as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> charged. Yet because He not only was innocent of all
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrongdoing, but righteous in all that He did, the grave
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could not hold Him. Death had no claim upon Him.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consequently, by His own Almighty power He arose from
the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dead; and alive forever more, He is seeking for
> >> >>>>>>> all
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> who
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a part in His crucifixion.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now it seems to me that the wisest thing that any man
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could do under such circumstances is to plead for mercy
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from this Court of Justice. Because this Man, whom you
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have crucified (your sins also nailed Him to the cross),
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is alive, and He is coming again to take vengeance upon
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all mankind.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ is The Judge of All the Earth!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I. for one, am certainly responsible for Christ's death
on
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> cross.
> >> >>>>>>>>> For
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sins, He died, to take the punishment for them. The same
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> punishment cannot be demanded twice, and so my Judge has
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> become my Saviour!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Uncle Davey
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> www.usenetposts.com
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your picture does not reveal your age :).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Very interesting. As an eyewitness of the conviction and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> murder of Jesus Christ by the Jews and Romans, you must
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> obviously have been able to speak and understand Hebew,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Aramaic, Greek, and Latin spoke by the rest of the people
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> there; or maybe just Hebrew.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Bible does not tell us everything that happened, so
why
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> don't you fill me in on what you personally witnessed two
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> thousand years ago when you took part in the execution of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> BB
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> You're writing like someone who doesn't believe in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> predestination.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Uncle Davey
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I know what election and predestination is and what it is
> >> >>>>>>>>>> not. I also know about our identification in Christ,
> >> >>>>>>>>>> substitution, etc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I know of know scripture that says that Christians living
> >> >>>>>>>>>> today are responsible for the behavior of non-christians
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2000 years ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>>> God is a just God and judges individuals based on individual
> >> >>>>>>>>>> behavior.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> BB
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Saying that Christ died for you is tantamount to saying that
> >> >>>>>>>>> you put him there.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Otherwise, how do you parse the verse about people crucifying
> >> >>>>>>>>> to themselves the Son of God afresh?
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> If Christ had not meant to die for us, then He could have
> >> >>>>>>>>> escaped, as He did those other times, before His time was
> >> >>>>>>>>> ready.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Uncle Davey
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Because it is talking about crucifying to "themselves".
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Christ meant to die for our sins, but only for those we
commit.
> >> >>>>>>>> But since you brought it up, what evidence do you have from
the
> >> >>>>>>>> scriptures that Christ knew that he would be crucified for the
> >> >>>>>>>> body of Christ? We know that he knew he was being crucified
for
> >> >>>>>>>> the Jews of that time. We know that he was able to endure the
> >> >>>>>>>> cross for the glory set before him. But, the mystery was not
> >> >>>>>>>> revealed until it was made known to the apostle Paul, so had
> >> >>>>>>>> God revealed that part of the plan to Him before the
> >> >>>>>>>> crucifixion or wait until after the crucifixion to reveal it
> >> >>>>>>>> to him?
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> BB
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> One massive piece of evidence is that he prays for future
> >> >>>>>>> believers in John 17, "neither pray I for these alone..." and
> >> >>>>>>> there are all the the prophetical passages about the end.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Now here we see how your belief that Christ is not God Almighty
> >> >>>>>>> interferes with your understanding of what Christ knew. Clearly
> >> >>>>>>> he knew what would be h ereafter, and the name of all that
> >> >>>>>>> would come to him. He never lost that knowledge, even being a
> >> >>>>>>> tiny baby lying in a manger. He never stopped being God and in
> >> >>>>>>> Him dwelt all the fullness of the godhead bodily. So therefore
> >> >>>>>>> of course He new whatever God the Father knew before Paul knew
> >> >>>>>>> it. 'Never revealed before' does not include Jesus, and that is
> >> >>>>>>> clear to all but the tiny majority of Bible believers who have
> >> >>>>>>> managed to escape the fact that Jesus is the LORD.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Uncle Davey
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> That's right, Uncle. Read Zachariah 2:8-11
> >> >>>>>> "For thus says the LORD of hosts, 'After glory He has
> >> >>>>>> sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who
touches
> >> >>>>>> you, touches the apple of His eye. For behold, I will wave My
> >> >>>>>> hand over them, so that they will be plunder for their slaves.
> >> >>>>>> Then you will know that the LORD of Hosts has sent Me. Sing for
> >> >>>>>> joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and
> >> >>>>>> will dwell in your midst,' declares the LORD. 'And many nations
> >> >>>>>> will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My
> >> >>>>>> people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that
> >> >>>>>> the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.'"
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> LORD of hosts sends LORD of hosts, here.
> >> >>>>>> God sends God
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> That makes Ariaan happy!
> >> >>>>>> Yaaahooooo!
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ariaan,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Surely, you haven't read my earlier post about Zech, otherwise
you
> >> >>>>> would not have repeated the modification of the text by
> >> >>>>> capitalizing "me".
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Why would someone being wrong make you happy? Why do you need
> >> >>>>> someone to agree with you to establish your faith? Are you
> >> >>>>> getting desperate? Are you a drowning man reaching out for
> >> >>>>> anything that passes by to hold you up? Careful, whale
> >> >>>>> excrement, might float for a little while but will surely sink.
> >> >>>>> When you are drowning in an ocean of doubt, fear, and
> >> >>>>> desperation, calm down inhale some pneuma and float to shore.
> >> >>>>> Backfloat so you can pass the time reading the Word on your way
> >> >>>>> to shore or so that if you don't have a Bible you can look up
> >> >>>>> into the stars and read the Word He wrote in the stars.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Bob
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Heh heh heh, no, I'm not drowning at all. I'm just celebrating my
> >> >>>> knowledge of Christ's deity.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Oh, and I don't think I've seen you refute my interpretation of
> >> >>>> this text. All I saw was a weak argument that this should be some
> >> >>>> sort of figurative text. You didn't even address the fact that it
> >> >>>> says the LORD is being sent by the LORD.
> >> >
> >> > It does not say "the LORD is being sent by the LORD" does it? Those
> >> > are your words, not words contained in the verse.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ariaan
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> So you missed the part where I admonished you for capitalizing the
> >> >>> word "me". And now you change the actual words in the Word to
> >> >>> support your belief system. Wonder where that inspiration came
> >> >>> from? Quote for me the words from which you wrongly divided "the
> >> >>> LORD is being sent by the LORD" that do not appear in the text.
> >> >>> Then read the verses in context and tell me who "me" is in "he sent
> >> >>> me" in verse nine (Hint try reading in the contextd starting at
> >> >>> 2:1).
> >> >>
> >> >> Zechariah 2: 8-11: "For thus says the LORD of hosts, 'After glory He
> >> >> has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who
> >> >> touches you, touches the apple of His eye. For behold, I will wave
> >> >> My hand over them, so that they will be plunder for their slaves.
> >> >> Then you will know that the LORD of Hosts has sent Me. Sing for joy
> >> >> and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and will
> >> >> dwell in your midst,' declares the LORD. 'And many nations will join
> >> >> themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I
> >> >> will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts
> >> >> has sent Me to you.'"
> >> >
> >> > Why did you capitalize "me"? "me" is not God. Read the context
> >> > starting at verse 2:1.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here God (the LORD of hosts) says that God (the One who has a people
> >> >> that are the apple of His eye) has sent Him.
> >> >
> >> > It does not say "Him", you are changing teh Word. It says sent "me"
> >> > and "me" is not Him and "me" is not "Me" and "me" is not God and "me"
> >> > is the speaker from verse 2:1.
> >> >
> >> >> God (the LORD of hosts) says that He will wave His hand over them,
> >> >> so that they will know that God (the LORD of hosts) has sent Him.
> >> >
> >> > Doesn't say "Him"
> >> >
> >> >> God (the LORD of hosts) says He will come and everyone will know
> >> >> that God (the LORD of hosts) has sent Him
> >> >
> >> > Doesn't say "Him"
> >> >>
> >> >> So the LORD of hosts is being sent by the LORD of hosts
> >> >> Hmmm, seems pretty clear to me.
> >> >
> >> > Clear to you because that is what you want to see, but that is not
> >> > what it says is it?
> >> >>
> >> >> And here is your context, taken from the King James:
> >> >
> >> > You forgot verses 1-5.
> >> >
> >> >> 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith
> >> >> the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the
> >> >> heaven, saith the LORD.
> >> >> 7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of
> >> >> Babylon. 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath
> >> >> he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth
> >> >> you toucheth the apple of his eye.
> >> >> 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be
> >> >> a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts
> >> >> hath sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I
> >> >> come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
> >> >> 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and
> >> >> shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou
> >> >> shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
> >> >> 12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land,
> >> >> and shall choose Jerusalem again.
> >> >> 13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out
> >> >> of his holy habitation.
> >> >> 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the
> >> >> angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist
> >> >> him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan;
> >> >> even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a
> >> >> brand plucked out of the fire?
> >> >>
> >> >> Clearly the LORD of host is sending the LORD of hosts.
> >> >> There are two (2) LORDs of hosts here.
> >> >
> >> > Who is "I" in Zec 2:2 and "me" in 3:1 amd "me" in verse 9?
> >> >>
> >> >> >snip<
> >> >> Ariaan
> >> >>> Ariaan, while it is fun for us to banter back and forth. It is not
> >> >>> profitable to you, to me, to the body, to the Lord Jesus Christ, or
> >> >>> to God to wrongly divide the Word to prove a point of ego. How do
> >> >>> you expect God to teach you if your bucket is full? The word
> >> >>> "meek" means willing to learn. God teaches the Word to those who
> >> >>> are "meek".
> >> >>>
> >> >>> BB
> >> >>
> >> >> Wrongly dividing the Word is not fun either. So I feel I have to
> >> >> keep this up.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ariaan
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > The "me" in verse nine is Zechariah speaking of his visions. Verses
> >> > have to be read in context..
> >> >
> >> > BB
> >>
> >> The LORD of hosts says it about Himself. "For thus says the LORD of
> >> hosts, 'After glory He has sent me (....) I will wave My hand over them
> >...
> >> then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me ... behold, I am
> >> coming ... declares the LORD ... and many nations .... will become My
> >people
> >> ... Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of
> >> hosts has sent Me to you."
> >>
> >> ariaan
> >> (see the other one)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Bob, this is yet another wriggle out of the clear meaning that is in
front
> >of you.
> >
> >Bob, Bob. Why are you persecuting the Divine Christ? Is it not hard for
you
> >to kick against the prickings of your conscience?
> >
> >Uncle Davey
> >
> Nice, try but no prize.
>
> Read Zech 3:1. Begins with "And" setting it in correspondence with
> last verse of chapter 2. Me is the prophet.
>
> BB
>
You obviously have a big big problem with understanding narrative
convention.
If I say, in modern speech the sentence if the following paragraph:
"My brother said to me 'I can't come to Poland in February, but I can come
in March'."
Then who can't come to Poland in February, me or him?
But that's funny, the 'me' which is the fifthy word in the sentence isn't my
brother, it's me.
That's what reported speech is all about, and it's pretty much the same idea
in every language except the mechanism by which reported speech is shown.
In German, a subjunctive is used, in Bulgarian there is a reportative voice.
In Biblical Hebrew, as in English, the reported phrase is preceded or
followed by 'he said', or similar.
The expression "thus saith the Lord" always introduces reported speech from
God, and that is what we have in Zechariah 2v8-11. "Thus saith the LORD of
hosts; After the glory hath he sent me to the nations which spoiled you: for
he which toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For behold I will shake
mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye
shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter
of Zion: for lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the
LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be
my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that
the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee." The construction, which to your
ears as one who does not believe in the trinitarian formula of understanding
the Godhead must sound terribly illogical, of the Lord of hosts sending the
Lord of Hosts, is repeated here so that there's no chance you could blink
and miss it.
If you want to say that the prophet Zechariah has placed himself as the 'me'
in those verses, you must think he had a very big idea of himself, and this
isn't borne out by the rest of what he says.
I challenge you also to show me other verses in scripture where it says
"Thus saith the LORD, I will" etc etc and the subject of what comes next is
not God but the human prophet.
That would be necessary to support your view.
Otherwise you are just doing you're usual wrestling match with scripture,
and it's two falls against you, we're just waiting for the submission.
Uncle Davey
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