On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:05:58 +0000 (UTC), "Piorokrat"
<piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
>
>news:h40o101nf62j60o2g2s8ffe2r23o0p1h2m@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:25:53 +0000 (UTC), "Piorokrat"
>> <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >> "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
>> >news:<bvd11c$k18$2@news.onet.pl>...
>> >> > news:a766a589.0401261129.4516665d@posting.google.com...
>> >> > > AC <mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>> >> > news:<slrnc1843b.1j0.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem>...
>> >> > > > ["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
>> >> > > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC),
>> >> > > > Piorokrat <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > news:slrnc167m3.bc.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
>> >> > > > >> ["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Would the crown fall from your head if you actually allowed my
>> >group
>> >> > to stay
>> >> > > > > in the discussion, without making me write it back in every
>time?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 21:58:31 +0000 (UTC),
>> >> > > > >> Bennett Standeven <berry@pop.networkusa.net> wrote:
>> >> > > > >> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:<buttes$csv$0@pita.alt.net>...
>> >> > > > >> >> "Ineedmoney" <mail@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
>message
>> >> > > > >> >> news:butqab$a2v$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> >> > > > >> >> >
>> >> > > > >> >> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > > >> >> > news:butoq1$4hq$0@pita.alt.net...
>> >> > > > >> >> > >
>> >> > > > >> >> > > "Cheezits" <cheezits32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > > >> >> > >
>news:Xns947A4B5CBF133cheezitsnetzeronet@129.250.170.83...
>> >> > > > >> >> > > > laurieappieton@aol.com (LaurieAppIeton) won't even
>try
>> >to
>> >> > defend
>> >> > this
>> >> > > > >> >> > > > nonsense, but let's have some fun with it anyway:
>> >> > > > >> >> > > > > 1) no natural process which resulted in information
>> >> > forming
>> >> > > > >> >> > > > > automatically in matter, has ever been observed;
>> >> > > > >> >> > > >
>> >> > > > >> >> > > > No act of divine creation has ever been observed.
>> >> > > > >> >> > >
>> >> > > > >> >> > > Oh yes it has, Sue. When God confounded the languages
>at
>> >> > Babel,
>> >> > > > humanity
>> >> > > > was
>> >> > > > >> >> > > able to observe it. That's why we were scattered all
>over
>> >the
>> >> > > > earth, and
>> >> > > > we
>> >> > > > >> >> > > speak languages whose families cannot possibly have a
>> >common
>> >> > ancestor.
>> >> > > > >> >> >
>> >> > > > >> >> > Any evidence of that outside the Bible, shmuck?
>> >> > > > >> >> >
>> >> > > > >> >> > Ed
>> >> > > > >> >> >
>> >> > > > >> >>
>> >> > > > >> >> Sure.
>> >> > > > >> >>
>> >> > > > >> >> All the evidence of a lack of common ancestor between the
>> >various
>> >> > language
>> >> > > > >> >> families lies in the fact that in the nearly two hundred
>years
>> >of
>> >> > sensible
>> >> > > > >> >> study of philology that we have had, no-one has been able
>to
>> >posit
>> >> > one.
>> >> > > > >> >>
>> >> > > > >> >> Or even give a reasonable envisaging of one.
>> >> > > > >> >>
>> >> > > > >> >> So, if you would like to say that it's wrong, then kindly
>show
>> >me
>> >> > what
>> >> > the
>> >> > > > >> >> common ancestor language could have looked like between,
>say,
>> >> > Finno-Ugric
>> >> > > > >> >> and Indo-European, and kindly leave my genitalia out of
>this
>> >> > discussion
>> >> > if
>> >> > > > >> >> you want to continue to be treated with respect. There are
>> >many
>> >> > more
>> >> > > > >> >> elevated uses of Yiddish phraseology.
>> >> > > > >> >>
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > Look up Nostratic; it is a putative common ancestor of
>> >Finno-Ugric
>> >> > and
>> >> > > > >> > Indo-European. Of course, the "fossil record" for languages
>> >only
>> >> > goes
>> >> > > > >> > back 6000 years, so anything prior to that is guesswork.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> As far as I know, this is hardly accepted by most linguists,
>and
>> >> > really
>> >> > the
>> >> > > > >> whole thing is besides the point. Uncle Davey seems to have
>> >created
>> >> > this
>> >> > > > >> odd bit of illogic where we need to find a common ancestor
>> >between
>> >> > all
>> >> > > > >> languages, otherwise the theory of biological evolution is not
>> >true.
>> >> > First
>> >> > > > >> of all, linguistics does not require that we actually be able
>to
>> >tie
>> >> > any
>> >> > of
>> >> > > > >> the major language groups together with common ancestors
>(though
>> >that
>> >> > would
>> >> > > > >> be cool), and language evolution shows some similarity to
>> >biological
>> >> > > > >> evolution, is a seperate process relying upon different
>> >mechanisms.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> IN other words, Uncle Davey is just spouting nonsense.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Nonsense, you say, but my question has got all your side coming
>> >back
>> >> > with
>> >> > > > > contradictory arguments.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > And what are those contradictory arguments. Spell them out.
>> >> >
>> >> > Some of you are saying languages don't subject to the laws of
>evolution,
>> >and
>> >> > some of you are saying they do.
>> >> >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > > Nonsense shouldn't have that effect, now, should it?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > The only nonsense around here is that you take two processes
>which
>> >are
>> >> > > > described by the word evolution and hung one on the other. At
>best,
>> >> > that is
>> >> > > > the sign of a dishonest individual trying to score a weak
>rhetorical
>> >> > point.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > And we know that you are a dishonest person.
>> >> >
>> >> > Just deal with the issues, not my imperfections, perfectionboy.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's what you would do, if you were so honest yourself.
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > At times he seems to be conflating at least three processes. There
>is
>> >> > > biological evolution itself, then there are two senses of the term
>> >> > > "linguistic evolution": the evolution of languages (e.g., Latin to
>> >> > > French), and the evolution of the capacity for language. As you
>know,
>> >> > > the latter is presumably a subset of biological evolution, and
>> >> > > scientists have attempted to account for it as such. The former
>> >> > > could, I suppose, be a subset of biological evolution, but
>Sockdaddy
>> >> > > needs to explain why.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's Sockuncle, to you.
>> >> >
>> >> > The reason is that languages are part of the human biology.
>> >> >
>> >> > Just say, just say that isn't true.
>> >> >
>> >> > > Most of all, he needs to identify which process
>> >> > > he's referring to, else he's just another decerebriate claiming
>that
>> >> > > theories of biological evolution must account for every process
>with a
>> >> > > name with the word "evolution" in it.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Mitchell Coffey
>> >> >
>> >> > So you're calling people who believe that biological evolution
>accounts
>> >for
>> >> > more than it really does 'decerebriate' (sic) are you?
>> >> >
>> >> > That's a good one.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'll remember that as the reason people think we can get from kind to
>> >kind
>> >> > by evolution.
>> >> >
>> >> > Uncle Davey
>> >>
>> >> I'm coming in late on this one, and I don't have your fancy book
>> >> learnings you all do, but it seems to me, as a regular average joe on
>> >> the street, that biology would have little to do with language
>> >> evolution as human being have been biologically the same for as long
>> >> as we have been humans.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Well, if you say that, you say that behaviour is not part of biology.
>> >
>> >And since behaviour determines who breeds with whom, what you say
>undermines
>> >evolutionary theory.
>> >
>>
>> do you really think that this undermines biology and evolutionary
>> theory? no, i mean, really, do you actually think that this somehow
>> presents a problem for evolution? if people matted by a throw of
>> the dice then that would undermine biology too wouldn't it?
>>
>
>According to evolution, yes it would.
>
>Uncle Davey
ok, well at least we've been able to establish beyond a doubt that you
have no idea what kind of evidence/actions would infact
contradict/undermine evolution.
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