news:h40o101nf62j60o2g2s8ffe2r23o0p1h2m@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:25:53 +0000 (UTC), "Piorokrat"
> <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
>
> >
> >> "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> >news:<bvd11c$k18$2@news.onet.pl>...
> >> > news:a766a589.0401261129.4516665d@posting.google.com...
> >> > > AC <mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >> > news:<slrnc1843b.1j0.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem>...
> >> > > > ["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
> >> > > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC),
> >> > > > Piorokrat <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > news:slrnc167m3.bc.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
> >> > > > >> ["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Would the crown fall from your head if you actually allowed my
> >group
> >> > to stay
> >> > > > > in the discussion, without making me write it back in every
time?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 21:58:31 +0000 (UTC),
> >> > > > >> Bennett Standeven <berry@pop.networkusa.net> wrote:
> >> > > > >> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:<buttes$csv$0@pita.alt.net>...
> >> > > > >> >> "Ineedmoney" <mail@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message
> >> > > > >> >> news:butqab$a2v$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > >> >> > "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > >> >> > news:butoq1$4hq$0@pita.alt.net...
> >> > > > >> >> > >
> >> > > > >> >> > > "Cheezits" <cheezits32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > >> >> > >
news:Xns947A4B5CBF133cheezitsnetzeronet@129.250.170.83...
> >> > > > >> >> > > > laurieappieton@aol.com (LaurieAppIeton) won't even
try
> >to
> >> > defend
> >> > this
> >> > > > >> >> > > > nonsense, but let's have some fun with it anyway:
> >> > > > >> >> > > > > 1) no natural process which resulted in information
> >> > forming
> >> > > > >> >> > > > > automatically in matter, has ever been observed;
> >> > > > >> >> > > >
> >> > > > >> >> > > > No act of divine creation has ever been observed.
> >> > > > >> >> > >
> >> > > > >> >> > > Oh yes it has, Sue. When God confounded the languages
at
> >> > Babel,
> >> > > > humanity
> >> > > > was
> >> > > > >> >> > > able to observe it. That's why we were scattered all
over
> >the
> >> > > > earth, and
> >> > > > we
> >> > > > >> >> > > speak languages whose families cannot possibly have a
> >common
> >> > ancestor.
> >> > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > >> >> > Any evidence of that outside the Bible, shmuck?
> >> > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > >> >> > Ed
> >> > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > >> >>
> >> > > > >> >> Sure.
> >> > > > >> >>
> >> > > > >> >> All the evidence of a lack of common ancestor between the
> >various
> >> > language
> >> > > > >> >> families lies in the fact that in the nearly two hundred
years
> >of
> >> > sensible
> >> > > > >> >> study of philology that we have had, no-one has been able
to
> >posit
> >> > one.
> >> > > > >> >>
> >> > > > >> >> Or even give a reasonable envisaging of one.
> >> > > > >> >>
> >> > > > >> >> So, if you would like to say that it's wrong, then kindly
show
> >me
> >> > what
> >> > the
> >> > > > >> >> common ancestor language could have looked like between,
say,
> >> > Finno-Ugric
> >> > > > >> >> and Indo-European, and kindly leave my genitalia out of
this
> >> > discussion
> >> > if
> >> > > > >> >> you want to continue to be treated with respect. There are
> >many
> >> > more
> >> > > > >> >> elevated uses of Yiddish phraseology.
> >> > > > >> >>
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Look up Nostratic; it is a putative common ancestor of
> >Finno-Ugric
> >> > and
> >> > > > >> > Indo-European. Of course, the "fossil record" for languages
> >only
> >> > goes
> >> > > > >> > back 6000 years, so anything prior to that is guesswork.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> As far as I know, this is hardly accepted by most linguists,
and
> >> > really
> >> > the
> >> > > > >> whole thing is besides the point. Uncle Davey seems to have
> >created
> >> > this
> >> > > > >> odd bit of illogic where we need to find a common ancestor
> >between
> >> > all
> >> > > > >> languages, otherwise the theory of biological evolution is not
> >true.
> >> > First
> >> > > > >> of all, linguistics does not require that we actually be able
to
> >tie
> >> > any
> >> > of
> >> > > > >> the major language groups together with common ancestors
(though
> >that
> >> > would
> >> > > > >> be cool), and language evolution shows some similarity to
> >biological
> >> > > > >> evolution, is a seperate process relying upon different
> >mechanisms.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> IN other words, Uncle Davey is just spouting nonsense.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Nonsense, you say, but my question has got all your side coming
> >back
> >> > with
> >> > > > > contradictory arguments.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > And what are those contradictory arguments. Spell them out.
> >> >
> >> > Some of you are saying languages don't subject to the laws of
evolution,
> >and
> >> > some of you are saying they do.
> >> >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Nonsense shouldn't have that effect, now, should it?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The only nonsense around here is that you take two processes
which
> >are
> >> > > > described by the word evolution and hung one on the other. At
best,
> >> > that is
> >> > > > the sign of a dishonest individual trying to score a weak
rhetorical
> >> > point.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > And we know that you are a dishonest person.
> >> >
> >> > Just deal with the issues, not my imperfections, perfectionboy.
> >> >
> >> > That's what you would do, if you were so honest yourself.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > At times he seems to be conflating at least three processes. There
is
> >> > > biological evolution itself, then there are two senses of the term
> >> > > "linguistic evolution": the evolution of languages (e.g., Latin to
> >> > > French), and the evolution of the capacity for language. As you
know,
> >> > > the latter is presumably a subset of biological evolution, and
> >> > > scientists have attempted to account for it as such. The former
> >> > > could, I suppose, be a subset of biological evolution, but
Sockdaddy
> >> > > needs to explain why.
> >> >
> >> > That's Sockuncle, to you.
> >> >
> >> > The reason is that languages are part of the human biology.
> >> >
> >> > Just say, just say that isn't true.
> >> >
> >> > > Most of all, he needs to identify which process
> >> > > he's referring to, else he's just another decerebriate claiming
that
> >> > > theories of biological evolution must account for every process
with a
> >> > > name with the word "evolution" in it.
> >> > >
> >> > > Mitchell Coffey
> >> >
> >> > So you're calling people who believe that biological evolution
accounts
> >for
> >> > more than it really does 'decerebriate' (sic) are you?
> >> >
> >> > That's a good one.
> >> >
> >> > I'll remember that as the reason people think we can get from kind to
> >kind
> >> > by evolution.
> >> >
> >> > Uncle Davey
> >>
> >> I'm coming in late on this one, and I don't have your fancy book
> >> learnings you all do, but it seems to me, as a regular average joe on
> >> the street, that biology would have little to do with language
> >> evolution as human being have been biologically the same for as long
> >> as we have been humans.
> >>
> >
> >Well, if you say that, you say that behaviour is not part of biology.
> >
> >And since behaviour determines who breeds with whom, what you say
undermines
> >evolutionary theory.
> >
>
> do you really think that this undermines biology and evolutionary
> theory? no, i mean, really, do you actually think that this somehow
> presents a problem for evolution? if people matted by a throw of
> the dice then that would undermine biology too wouldn't it?
>
According to evolution, yes it would.
Uncle Davey
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