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From: Lenny Flank <lflank_nospam@ij.net>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Hello T.O.
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:19:38 +0000 (UTC)
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Piorokrat wrote:
> news:3fdfd0d7_4@corp.newsgroups.com...
>
>>John Harshman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Lenny Flank wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>John Harshman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Lenny Flank wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Piorokrat wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
> w
>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Piorokrat wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>So, for me, the best definition of a kind, true to both what I
>
> have
>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>priviledged to observe of nature as well as in the Word of God,
>
> would
>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"the whole population of descendents of a group of animals or
>
> plants
>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>which,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>at the time of their creation, were able to breed and have
>
> offspring
>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>were fertile."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sounds fine to me. Now how do you go about telling, in the present
>>>>>>>>>>world, whether two organisms belong to the same or different
>
> kinds?
>
>>>>>>>>>>Because all the evidence leads *me* to believe that there's only
>
> one
>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>kind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In particular, how do you tell that humans belong to a different
>
> kind
>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>from the African apes?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well I've given you a philosophical answer. I didn't say it would
>
> be
>
>>>>>>>>>possible to check and know for sure exactly what is in the same
>
> kind.
>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Surely you have some idea of the limits, and some idea of criteria
>
> for
>
>>>>>>>>basing your decisions. I'm suspecting you think that humans and apes
>>>>>>>>belong to different kinds. I'm suspecting you disagree with my
>
> position,
>
>>>>>>>>which is that there is a single kind containing all life. I'm just
>>>>>>>>asking what basis you have for these opinions, if indeed you hold
>
> them.
>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, I do believe that humans are a separate kind from apes, and the
>
> reason
>
>>>>>>>is that I cannot see with the length of the human generational cycle,
>
> even
>
>>>>>>>if we made it as short as twenty years, would be enough to enable us
>
> to go
>
>>>>>>>back a maximum of ten thousand years and therefore five hundred
>
> generations
>
>>>>>>>and get something that could have interbred with apes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Behe disagrees with you and thinks you're full of shit. And he, unlike
>>>>>>you, is a working scientist. <shrug>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why is he wrong and you're right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This seems to be an argument from authority and nothing more. If he
>>>>>doesn't know or care who Michael Behe is (and why should he), it loses
>>>>>all potential force. Why keep bringing it up?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Because Davey's entire argument consists solely of his OWN arguemnt from
>>>>authority ---- "My interpretation of Christianity says humans aren't
>>>>evolved from apes, therefore they aren't".
>>>>
>>>>Behe is also a Christian (and a creationist). He thinks humans evolved
>>>
>>>>from apes.
>>>
>>>>Ergo Davey's argument from authority is a crock of shit. Unless Davey
>>>>can tell me why HIS religious or scientific authority is better than
>>>>Behe's. Or anybody else's for that matter.
>>>>
>>>>That's why I keep bringing it up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Then you have to explain to him who Behe is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>He is capable of doing a Google search, I presume.
>>
>>It's not MY fault that Davey wants to yammer stupidly about topics he
>>doesn't know anything about. <shrug>
>>
>
> That's nice.
>
> Why should your view about how to argue with creationists be any more valid
> than John Harshman's view about how to argue with creationists? Why should I
> listen to you more, pray, than him, than to trebor at sirius, than to
> Charles C, to Behe and Ross, or for that matter, to the kid who was arguing
> with another kid this afternoon about whether creationists or evolutionists
> can eat more Big Macs?
Don't. <shrug>
Now answer my goddamn question.
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
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