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From: "::Y-Not::" <%+14$-Y-Not@here-and.there>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.smeagol
Subject: Re: trolls
Date: 29 May 2006 19:12:18 -0500
Organization: Can Help
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Message-ID: <290520062010347942%%+14$-Y-Not@here-and.there>
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In article <0001HW.C09FE7BE0012104AF0284530@news.easynews.com>,
Morpheus <Morpheus@Deamland.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:04:02 -0700, Y-Not:: wrote
> (in article <280520062102101293%%+14$-Y-Not@here-and.there>):
>
> > In article <0001HW.C09F21CF00537C45F0284530@news.easynews.com>,
> > Morpheus <Morpheus@Deamland.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:13:01 -0700, Y-Not:: wrote
> >> (in article <280520060311085490%%+14$-Y-Not@here-and.there>):
> >>
> >>> In article <44787d34$0$74446$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com>,
> >>> <justalerker@nothereorthere.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> some people in other groups have made the mistake of feeding the trolls.
> >>>> I
> >>>> was just thinking that we should overfeed them till the chock on there
> >>>> own
> >>>> poison.( sounds crazy ).Keep them occupied so that the have no time to
> >>>> find
> >>>> and destroy other groups like this one!
> >>>>
> >>>> as you know a certain troll hate Dixie Chicks and any weird religions
> >>>> comments about Christian fundamentalism ( hates a lot of other thing too
> >>>> )
> >>>>
> >>>> a comment like .. the Dixie chicks were right about the war... other were
> >>>> wrong.... There for the Dixie chicks must be profits from god.
> >>>>
> >>>> A comment like that would be like trolling the trolls. I think using a
> >>>> lot
> >>>> of different nicks to reply would also be good.
> >>>> Many other things could be said ...but the main ideal is to troll the
> >>>> trolls
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It's already been tried. Lookin, with a whole bunch of his other nics,
> >>> did that for a while, in two wars. They just laughed at him.
> >>> I do NOT recommend it be done. Don't BE like them!
> >>>
> >>> Some feed the Trolls, and some communicate with them usefully on rare
> >>> occasions, and some feel it's important to correct things the Trolls
> >>> sometimes do and say that could harm the newbies. This includes
> >>> exposing impersonations. This isn't feeding anyone, but protecting the
> >>> society.
> >>> Just because long time visitors to these groups can recognize the
> >>> Trolls for what they are and so not believe them, new visitors may NOT.
> >>> Please care about them too, especially the impressionable young people
> >>> who visit mostly in secret.
> >>> The Trolls, to us, are just a minor visual nuisance. To the
> >>> inexperienced, they can cause real harm. I care about everyone, not
> >>> just the knowledgeable. How about you?
> >>>
> >>> An added problem is that recognizing who are Trolls and who are not, is
> >>> unnecessarily complicated by some BLs who often act just like the
> >>> Trolls, and by some people who post against the Trolls in a way that
> >>> just echoes their stupidity and hostility. Best not to add to that.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Take care,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Y Not
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "We can only love others,
> >>> to the extent with which we love ourselves."
> >>
> >> Generally, I agree with you. Perhaps if you were more explicit about how
> >> trolls can '..cause real harm...' to the 'inexperienced', it would be
> >> helpful
> >> for them (the inexperienced) to see why they should be avoided...
> >>
> >> Also liked the line "..the Dixie Chicks must be profits from God..."
> >> Right.
> >>
> >
> >
> > It's somewhat odd, but you seem to agree now, with what you have
> > disagreed with in the past when I said the same things. Has something
> > changed your mind?
> >
> > I've already mentioned the things you ask about, in other posts.
> >
> > Now I don't want to give them more power then they already have, but
> > these groups are visited by some very sensitive people, who are
> > sometimes very depressed and suicidal. I know of at least two of them
> > who have killed themselves because of the actions of the Trolls. How
> > many more times has this happened, that we will never know about?
> > You have seen them attack suspected young people without mercy. Well,
> > you have done the same. This is bound to affect them in a negative way.
> >
> > BLs need the support and care of their fellows, which is why this
> > society exists. The Trolls try to ruin that, and so do some disturbed
> > BLs, by trying to destroy positive relationships by posting lies, and
> > also doing that in impersonations. How bad does it get, that the most
> > prolific and potentially destructive impersonator, is a BL?
> >
> > Trolls post lies about people and security issues that could cause harm
> > if believed. They also try to motivate people to compromise their
> > security by defending who they are. This has happened, unfortunately.
> > Bad security advice can be disastrous.
> >
> > The Trolls most attack the people who help others. Newbies NEED this
> > help, but who are they to believe, when they don't know the score? THAT
> > is the biggest problem. If more BLs actually provided good help to
> > those who needed it, it would be less of a problem. The more the Trolls
> > have to spread their attacks around, the more obvious they are, and
> > therefore the less effective.
> > It's worse when BLs do the attacking. Then newbies are caught in the
> > middle, in a hopeless mess. And it could land them in prison. Newbies
> > who post naked, need to be helped QUIETLY. When the person who helps
> > them is attacked, their security breach is practically shouted all
> > over. KH and I had an argument about helping someone early last year,
> > and resolved it when I pointed this out.
> >
> > Sometimes Trolls, mostly unwittingly, bring up useful issues that BLs
> > SHOULD address, but either haven't thought of, or want to avoid, for
> > personal comfort reasons. Well, I think security is more important than
> > anything else. What kind of comfort will Bubba give them? In my
> > opinion, this justifies limited interactions with the Trolls in these
> > situations, so I do.
> >
> > One last thing, People who care about this society, and the people who
> > are in it, will NOT ever kill filter a poster, or they won't be able to
> > see what the newbies see, and won't be as effective in helping them.
> > WHY can't people just choose not to read the posts they know they won't
> > like? They could always do it when the situation calls for it, but why
> > do they have to torture themselves by reading them all, and then resort
> > to kill filters to control their urges? In some cases, when they
> > announce it, it is because they are using that as a social weapon; "I
> > can't see you any more and that's supposed to hurt you, and that's why
> > I'm announcing it, or I would have just dome it without the fanfare".
> > Immature schoolyard tactic, that does NOT support the groups.
> >
> > I have much more I could say about this, well, when haven't I, but I
> > don't have time right now. Too much responding to the lying attacks of
> > some people, is one of the causes. I can only do so much.
> >
> >
> > Y Not
>
> You responded to me personally when what I suggested is that you inform the
> group. You really must get over this fixation with me.
What? I responded to you. Of course I did. If someone else had replied
and asked the questions, I would have responded to THEM.
If you don't want me to respond to you, why do you post to me? When
will you start making sense?
> May I also suggest that you change your priorities and place the posting of
> helpful security information above responding to personal attacks.
Well, you haven't started making sense yet.
Those personal attacks are designed to reduce my effectiveness in
helping others, by trying to destroy my credibility and actually
warning the newbies to disregard me and the security information I give
them. If I don't counter that, all the security help I could give,
would be no help at all. This seems to be what you want.
I wouldn't mind, if there were someone else who would give the security
help at least as well as I do. Then I could say "good riddance", and
leave all of this behind.
And let HIM deal with the personal attacks he would surely receive.
What you dislike of me is caused by the job, and how it must be done.
If another would do it, as effectively, they would be in the same
situation, and be opposed by the same people, for the same reasons.
Other people have tried, and have quickly realized this and given up.
It is a part of the conflict between order and chaos. Those who help,
socially and technically, by the very nature of this, promote order.
Those who feel more comfortable with chaos, in the less social
restrictions of the anarchistic environment of Usenet, will oppose
anyone who promotes order, sometimes without realizing why they do it.
abc knows, and has consciously made the choice, in favor of chaos, and
his need to bully, as he has actually said. What of you? Do you think
that is the best for this society? Or do you think that by working
better to help people is what we SHOULD be doing? There can be
disagreements without hostility, discussions without animosity. Where
there is a WILL, there is a way.
> After all, you don't need anyone. You are just doing this for the kids,
> right? So just let pesonal attacks slip on by. I know, to borrow a line
> from Nancy, "...Just say, ole..."
Yes, it's plain to see why you don't want me to defend myself, and all
the help I give, from YOUR personal attacks.
Since you haven't expressed any here, I will give you some sense:
When someone asks me about what to do about Trolls, I will use
illustrations of Troll activities, if I think I should, that the
individual who asked, best relates to. This is what people who know how
to communicate, do. It's known that I do this.
SO, it would be somewhat less than intelligent for someone who has done
the same things the Trolls have, especially in regard to security
issues, to ask me about this subject. That YOU did, was your choice.
It's a little foolish to complain about getting exactly what you asked
for.
Children tend to isolate events out of context, particularly in their
attempts to manipulate their parents in their conversations, when they
want something their parents have refused them.
This is because they can't see the larger "picture" (not mature or
intelligent enough), even though they suspect it's there, and want to
distract their parents from considering that. They also don't think of
the consequences of their actions (cause and effect is a mystery to
them), and have little understanding of risk.
I see all this a lot in the attacks on me. Being well versed in
developmental (child) psychology, I've found to be very helpful in
dealing with them, and, well (sorry about this), you.
Does it really have to be this way? You don't have to respond to me at
all, or even mention me in your posts. It's all your choice. But IS it?
Are you able to choose differently?
Y Not
"The more we learn, the more we discover how ignorant we are.
Wisdom, is in surviving this."
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