On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:57:57 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
<victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:47:54 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:03:42 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:18:14 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:52:24 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>>>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:14:50 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dear Doc,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hmm. A very, very baaaaa-d boy, deserving of a stout thrashing, the
>>>>>>>administration there of, for which, I am sure many in the audience
>>>>>>>would volunteer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You are quite welcome for the posting. A quick knock-off, really.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I will confess that I am not as high-minded nor charitably motivated
>>>>>>>as you, my dear confidant. Circumstances and personal choice have
>>>>>>>left me without a young friend to cuddle, but had I the freedom and
>>>>>>>opportunity, I would have taken it. It is a cold world out there,
>>>>>>>particularly for Boylovers, and we all companionship, sexual closeness
>>>>>>>and comfort, affection and love, each in our own way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Victor, I must say in all honesty, it is a bleedin' shame that you
>>>>>>have no boy in your life. To think of how a boy would benefit from
>>>>>>knowing you and being in your company... well, it warms my heart. You
>>>>>>know best your own heart and limitations. I applaud you for knowing
>>>>>>what is best and doing what is best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There are certain premises that are very difficult to overcome when
>>>>>>>looking at this business of sexual affection for and sexual play with
>>>>>>>boys, concepts that are ingrained from our earliest years hence. I do
>>>>>>>not pretend to speak for other Friends in Affection (insomuch as I
>>>>>>>invariably get into trouble when I generalise!), I speak only for
>>>>>>>myself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A disclaimer: I base the following on the presupposition that any
>>>>>>>relationship between a man and boy does not involve deception, verbal
>>>>>>>or physical intimidation, force or violence. I think I've made my
>>>>>>>views very clear about that kind of thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hear, hear!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Whenever a discussion about sex arises, joking and bragging aside, it
>>>>>>>is nearly always couched in the negative. I think we speak of and
>>>>>>>view sex far too negatively and seriously. If anything, sex is good. Sex
>>>>>>>is spontaneous, playful, mutually fun and fulfilling ... at least it
>>>>>>>should be. Too often convention attempts to destroy this fine
>>>>>>>quality--My God, just look at the UK a hundred or so years ago. To
>>>>>>>preface it with dire warnings about being ready, taking the big step,
>>>>>>>dealing with commitment and consequence, attempts to bind pleasure in
>>>>>>>iron. Nothing spontaneous or playful about that. This is precisely
>>>>>>>what tradition intends, to instill certain suppositions and prevent
>>>>>>>certain behaviours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You're preaching to the choir my friend. What should be and what IS
>>>>>>are two different things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If a boy knows what he wants, does he necessarily know what he is
>>>>>>>doing? Well, honestly ... does anyone? If adults believe they have
>>>>>>>the prophylactic of experience to protect them from bad decisions,
>>>>>>>then it appears their protection is full of holes, as a daily perusal
>>>>>>>of the papers will confirm. Boys are perfectly capable of making
>>>>>>>decisions, for good or bad and, I believe, are no less skilled at it
>>>>>>>than most adults. I do agree with you, but not with your intent,
>>>>>>>which is to contrast boys from people. I don't believe the contrast
>>>>>>>can be supported.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No, I definitely see boys as people. But as a father who has watched
>>>>>>in great detail and fascination the development of my own sons, I
>>>>>>understand that boys make decisions in ways that are different than
>>>>>>adults. Science has gone on to show that adolescents often make very
>>>>>>poor decisions because of the stage of development of their brains.
>>>>>>Let's take, as an example, T-Bone, who is my own loved boy, and who
>>>>>>has been in my life for 5 years now. At age 11 T-Bone was convinced
>>>>>>that he was gay. He hadthe worst case of 'Dad Jonesin' I've ever seen.
>>>>>>He wanted to make love to me and for me to make love to him. he wanted
>>>>>>me to teach him. However, he had little understanding of what it meant
>>>>>>to 'make love' to a man. He was really more interested in the cuddling
>>>>>>and the kissing and the physcial affection. That is what he needed and
>>>>>>I gave him that in abundance. We had many, long conversations about
>>>>>>the seriousness of lovemaking, the possible consequences, the
>>>>>>permanence of the act. We also talked about the wonderful side of it
>>>>>>and why it was such an all consuming thought for an adolescent boy
>>>>>>(and the man who loved him). Intellectually, T-Bone had very good
>>>>>>answers for every argument I gave him, except one: I wasn't ready yet.
>>>>>>Four months later, his Grandfather grilled him on the nature of his
>>>>>>relationship with me. It wasn't until that moment that he REALLY
>>>>>>understood why I kept telling him that he wasn't ready. By age 13,
>>>>>>T-Bone had the maturity and experience to make the right choice about
>>>>>>whether making love with me was what he wanted.He never broached the
>>>>>>subject. He is ready now at age 16. But he's got his own peer outlets
>>>>>>for his sexual experimentation and pleasure. He has a boyfriend and a
>>>>>>girlfriend. I guess you could say that I missed out, but I don't see
>>>>>>it that way at all. It isn't about ME. It's always been about him.
>>>>>>Don't think for a moment that I haven't been rewarded for the love
>>>>>>I've shown him. The intimacy we've shared has been mind blowing. He
>>>>>>flirts with me, he teases me, he sleeps with me (in the same bed) he
>>>>>>loves me in every way except physically. VV, if I ever asked him to,
>>>>>>he would do ANYTHING. But it's not about me. And I guess that's my
>>>>>>entire point. None of what I've said has been negative, it's all been
>>>>>>positive. I would jump at the chance to make love to T-Bone, maybe one
>>>>>>day it will happen, but if it does, it will be his idea and we'll
>>>>>>still have another big talk about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Upon research and reflection, I believe you will find that most young
>>>>>>>friends who had engaged in sexual play with boys and men, become
>>>>>>>heterosexual. The idea that gay tendencies predispose a boy to
>>>>>>>indulge in sexual play with other boys or men is a phallusee ... er
>>>>>>>... I mean fallacy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree. Experience in these groups has shown me that the boys who
>>>>>>play here already suspect they are gay. All of my loved boys to date
>>>>>>have been heterosexuals, although one likes to step out with guys once
>>>>>>in awhile. Of my boys who've reached adulthood two of them are married
>>>>>>and one is a father, the others are dating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The belief that a boy who engages in such play
>>>>>>>with boys or men will become gay is patently incorrect. These are
>>>>>>>ideas that our societies instill in us from the earliest ages ... and
>>>>>>>they yet prove stoutly resistant to change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My question to you regarding going to another culture was a silly one,
>>>>>>>I suppose, and you will forgive me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Without hesitation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Even in our own societies, boys
>>>>>>>will respond in a wide range of ways to having experiened sexual play.
>>>>>>>Some may be upset, perhaps overly so, given the present state of
>>>>>>>things, others perhaps embarrassed, others tickled but hesitant, still
>>>>>>>others entertained, or satisfied, or enthusiastic or even
>>>>>>>aggressively encouraged. There are boys who would feel the experience
>>>>>>>was bad, but others who--(Dear Nellie, Cover Your Ears and Look After
>>>>>>>Your Hamsters!)--felt the experience was good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That was the case with Brian, the only boy I've ever made love to. He
>>>>>>often talked about how the love relationship we shared was more more
>>>>>>fulfilling in many ways than the one he had with his wife. He
>>>>>>regretted the fact that she could never understand him as I did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When you step out of
>>>>>>>our own culture and into others, these reactions shift according to
>>>>>>>the relative sexual permissiveness or restrictiveness of that culture.
>>>>>>>I have heard pubescent Italian boys in days of yore were expected to
>>>>>>>indulge in sexual play with other boys, just to keep them off the
>>>>>>>girls. There are certain South American tribes where a man might
>>>>>>>fondle his young son while sleeping, to give him a sense of pleasure
>>>>>>>and security. Then, of course, there are the classical Athenians ...
>>>>>>>and others!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Right!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nevertheless, every society has its sexual taboos, and will chose to
>>>>>>>ignore what doesn't support them. Ours are particularly stringent,
>>>>>>>with potentially dire consequences for violating them. So, I think
>>>>>>>most boys do indeed understand the dangers ... for every boy knows
>>>>>>>from experience how their peers might look at him, speak of him and
>>>>>>>treat him, should a liaison with a man become known. Boys can be
>>>>>>>terribly cruel, particularly adolescent boys. I know of two cases in
>>>>>>>particular where boys, who had been or rumoured to have been engaging
>>>>>>>in sexual play with a man, were mercilessly teased by classmates. One
>>>>>>>boy finally beat his tormentor up, and (apparently having proven his
>>>>>>>manhood) that was the end of that. The other boy, desperate to escape
>>>>>>>the endless taunts of his peers, threw himself from a structure and
>>>>>>>thereby, tragically, succeeded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>T-Bone, who comes off as straight, has seen other hetero teens
>>>>>>threaten and abuse gay teens. He even got suspended for protecting one
>>>>>>from a very agressive kid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would add that both lads were involved with a chap who was making
>>>>>>>videos for sale (casting the veracity of his "affections" for his
>>>>>>>friends in great doubt) and had been arrested. A true Boylover would
>>>>>>>not have put his young friend in such a compromising position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Exactly. One of my boys was the victim of a user. Over there in
>>>>>>London, to be exact. The guy manipulated him, coerced him, drugged him
>>>>>>and blackmailed him, all to get my young friend to do what he wanted.
>>>>>>If you read the London papers last winter, you will know the case. My
>>>>>>YF had to confront his abuser in court. It was not a happy thing. :(
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not to worry, I have been nursing him back to happiness....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well. I am very sorry, Doc, for I intended this to be brief and ...
>>>>>>>as all can see ... I have again failed!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Nonsense, you were quite successful. I love our little discussions. I
>>>>>>wonder if we should move them back to The Fort where more folks can
>>>>>>join in?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Much love,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Doc
>>>>>>NP-f31
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear Doc,
>>>>>
>>>>>I regret I am not familiar with the case to which you refer, but I am
>>>>>not much for reading the papers or watching the tellie, and seldom
>>>>>follow news on line, so you will forgive my ignorance. The truth is
>>>>>the daily news makes me a little nauseous.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also intrigued by your boy's name--T-Bone is it? Is that short
>>>>>for Timothy?
>>>>
>>>>Hey Double V,
>>>>
>>>>You are spot on, though he goes by Tim and I was told to never, ever
>>>>call him Timmy. LOL
>>>>
>>>>>In regards to preaching to the choir, I do understand your point ...
>>>>>there is what should be and then there is what is. What I continually
>>>>>find surprising is your description of how boys you've known, and I
>>>>>assume them to be adolescent boys, talk about sexual relations with
>>>>>such gravity ... which I find from my own experience to be completely
>>>>>contrary--indeed, counterintuitive--to their nature. If there is any
>>>>>one group that utterly exudes spontaneity, it is young boys. You,
>>>>>yourself, have noted studies that have demonstrated fundamental
>>>>>differences in how teenagers make decisions in contrast to adults, and
>>>>>if spontaneity (often mistaken by proper adults for irresponsibility!)
>>>>>is one difference, then the seriousness about sex and sexual acts,
>>>>>couching such in terms of "making love" and having a "loving
>>>>>relationship" is all the more surprising, wouldn't you say?
>>>>
>>>>I think a lot of that has to do with the terminology I use when I talk
>>>>to my boys about sex. When I talk about sex between them and their
>>>>peers, I tell them that I consider that good clean fun and the only
>>>>boundaries they should employ are those of discretion and common sense
>>>>(condoms). When I talk to them about the potential for sex between me
>>>>and them, I use a different set of terminologies. I would never 'fuck'
>>>>a boy, nor would I have sex with him for fun. It is too serious an
>>>>issue to me and I want it to be the same for them. The sexual act, to
>>>>me as it pertains to a boy in my life, is the ultimate expression of
>>>>mutual love and trust. It is not to be entered into lightly and if at
>>>>all only after long periods of conversation and reflection. As a
>>>>result, I've only ever made love to a single boy. The boys in my life,
>>>>such as T-Bone and Mac, Luka and Mikey, etc. talk about sex between
>>>>themselves in different terms. They make love, but they also fool
>>>>around. You'd be surprised at what happens when groups of them get
>>>>together...
>>>>
>>>>>It is nice to hear that T-Bone will come to the defence of other boys
>>>>>who are taunted or harassed because they are perceived as gay (whether
>>>>>they are or they aren't). I would note that boys who have had
>>>>>relations with men but consider themselves heterosexual are not, by
>>>>>that fact, perceivably more sympathetic to a gay boy than those who
>>>>>have not ... less so when among peers. Sad to say that this behaviour
>>>>>is ingrained at a very early age, perhaps five or six years of age.
>>>>
>>>>Well, it may be because T-Bone considers himself gay. The interesting
>>>>thing about his situation is that until he beat up that football
>>>>player (who had a long term suspension for hate language and actions)
>>>>T-Bone was pretty much ostracized by the gay clique at his school (as
>>>>was Mac). Why? T-Bone is not effeminate (and he has a girlfriend) and
>>>>is considered one of the 'popular' kids at his school. Interesting.
>>>>
>>>>>Group Troll's reservations notwithstanding, I hadn't considered
>>>>>carrying this discussion to the Fort, for there is (thankfully) much
>>>>>going on there and it is quiet here, conducive to introspection, I
>>>>>suppose. I propose you suggest the topic, and see who shows interest.
>>>>
>>>>I have not seen, not do I care to see, Group Troll's posts. Apparently
>>>>I saw one more than I desired to at one point he ended up in the Kill
>>>>file. If he's there, he probably deserves to be. If I'm wrong, then
>>>>it's my loss. As for conversations in The Fort, we've had some good
>>>>ones there and here. We can do an invite and see if we can't make this
>>>>a bit of a discussion group. Thanks for your latest collection!
>>>>
>>>>Affectionately,
>>>>
>>>>Doc
>>>>NP-f31
>>>>
>>>>>All My Best,
>>>>>HMS Victor Victorian, NP-g18
>>>>>
>>>>>PS: Thank you, Group Troll, for your concern. You're not a bad chap,
>>>>>for a troll. Perhaps you might want to work on that. Ha!
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear Doc,
>>>
>>>You are certainly welcome to my latest offerings, a few things I'd
>>>come across, primarily from the ImageSearchdotRuskies. I don't know
>>>if you frequent the site, but if you enjoy nice photography, you might
>>>find it well worth your while. Hushmail me if you wish.
>>
>>Hey VV,
>>
>>I may take you up on that. As a rule, I do not surf the web for
>>content, though I have been known to visit youtube on occasion.
>>
>>>I've often thought and, upon considerable reflection, am convinced it
>>>is true, that the motivations and behaviours of heterosexual,
>>>homosexual, and pedosexual relationships are strikingly similar. You
>>>have the spectrum of loving and sacrificing ones to the selfish and
>>>sadistic, your honorably celebate and your rapists, and everything
>>>between.
>>
>>I agree.
>>
>>>I find your seriousness and caution regarding the perceived
>>>significance of the sexual act (however that might be defined) as
>>>curious because, to my mind, it very much reflects expectations of
>>>social responsibility, marriage and children, in other words
>>>expectations society never applies to Boylovers. Why else would the
>>>sexual act be seen as the utlimate expression of mutual love and
>>>trust and, dare I say, a commitment?
>>
>>Well VV, there are a lot of boylovers who are fathers. I treat all of
>>my boys as if I am their father figure. Yet, with the exception of my
>>sons, I have the added benefit of being a really fun friend as well.
>>When I 'claim' a boy it is a commitment. I tell him what I will do for
>>him and I tell him what I expect of him. We are a team that builds him
>>into a man. All other aspects of our relationship stem from this
>>beginning.
>>
>>>
>>>So, let me pose a hypothetical situation (complete with disclaimers,
>>>etc. etc.) of a spontaneous situation.
>>
>>Yippee!
>>>
>>>A young friend of yours, say nine or ten years old, lies beside you on
>>>a bed. You are both fully clothed, he in a white polo shirt, white
>>>socks, having kicked his shoes off onto the floor, and a pair of baggy
>>>tan cordory pants, the style mothers generally buy when they don't
>>>want their darlings growing out of them right off.
>>>
>>>You may recall the style--the brass zippers were notorious. If you
>>>didn't get the tab firmly pressed down, the zipper was sure slide down
>>>by mid morning recess, making you the butt of lyrics about France and
>>>knickers and all.
>>
>>Or can bite the fire out of your member if you zip up too quickly...
>>
>>>You are both wrestling, talking and joking, perhaps playfully jabbing
>>>one another here and there in the upper and nether regions and
>>>laughing. In the process, you notice his zipper has come down about
>>>half way on the fly. Had he also noticed? Perhaps. For through the
>>>sniggering, your young friend suddenly asks, "What's a blue job?'
>>>
>>>"A blue job?" You ask.
>>>
>>>"Yeah. Ronnie always says 'give me a blue job.'"
>>>
>>>And it occurs to you.
>>>"Oh, you mean BLOW job?" You laugh.
>>>
>>>"I guess. What's a blue job ... BLOW job?"
>>>
>>>"Well," you reply, "It is when one person sucks another person's
>>>todger."
>>>
>>>"Get on! Really?" and now nearly convulsed in giggles, the little
>>>fellow manages to sputter, "How? How do they do it?" He claps his
>>>hands over his pants zipper in feign modesty. With a michevious gleem
>>>in his eye and that very naughty come-hither chuckling any Boylover
>>>recognises instantly, he again asks, "How?"
>>>
>>>So, there you are. What do you do now?
>>
>>Well, since my young friend is only 9 or 10 I would probably start by
>>riffing off the misunderstanding between blue and blow. "A blue job?
>>Well don't you think he was talking about those silly bands that all
>>the 4th graders are wearing? The blue ones are my favorites.'
>>
>>It would also be completely honest to say, 'There's no such thing as a
>>blue job, to my knowledge. Who knows what he's talking about?'
>>
>>I knew him to be sufficiently sophisticated I would explain the
>>mechanics of the act. 'Well, the one giving the blow job puts his
>>mouth on the other boy's biz kit. Repeat, repeat, repeat and rinse.
>>It's also called oral sex.'
>>
>>>Well! I've become quite overheated! So I will leave you with this,
>>>and please know I think Timothy is quite the upstanding young lad. And
>>>you say you have sons as well. I am certain you've good reason to be
>>>proud of each of them.
>>
>>Tim is amazing. You would like him and he would like you. He has a
>>serious respect for boylovers. He explained all about me to his
>>boyfriend Mac, who is now another of my loved boys.
>>
>>>Regarding Group Troll ... I think Mover is quite correct in that he is
>>>also a BL ... I've been searching and searching for pictures of little
>>>boy trolls with little green erections, but have to this point been
>>>utter frustrated.
>>
>>I have no idea what Mover said either, for the same reason.
>>
>>>Bullocks!
>>>
>>>(Pardon my language)
>>
>>Isn't a bullock a male calf?
>>
>>Much love and continuing admiration,
>>
>>Doc
>>NP-f31
>>
>>>Very Sincerely Yours,
>>>V
>>>
>>>
>>>God Save the Queen.
>>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>>Rule Britannia!
>
>Dearest Doc,
>
>Good Heavens Me! I would not have disadvantaged the young fellow's
>full understanding, nor denied our mutual pleasure, by relying on poor
>words alone! Doc, you are most certainly the ultimate paradigm of
>propriety! God help you.
>
>Biz kit?
Hey Double V!
That's American slang for todger. (Business Kit, ie tools of the
trade)
>
>Rinse? Really!
No not really, but do you want me to tell a nine year old to swallow?
LOL!
>You mention that "since my young friend is nine or ten." How is it
>then with a young friend who is thirteen or fourteen, for example?
My Dear Double Victor, if my boy is 13 and doesn't know what a 'Blue
job' is then he has led a sheltered life indeed. Most boys that age
have had one and given one (or more).
>No. Bullocks is not a male calf ... but you are close!
>(OUCH! Blasted zipper!)
>
>Sincerely,
>
>V
>God Save the Queen.
I was wondering how often the Queen finds herself in peril that she
needs so much saving, I mean it's been years since she was a Princess
in distress.
Just wondering.
Doc
NP-f31
>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>God Preserve the Windsors.
>Rule Britannia!
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